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Thread: Question about repairing pedal of pump organ

  1. #11
    ff Fortissimo SubBase's Avatar
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    I see you're in Worcester; down rt 20 in Palmer is Nelson Pease, who has buildings full of reed organs and parts. Bring the good spring with you and he can match it.
    nbpease@comcast.net
    say Casey sent you!

  2. #12
    ppp Pianississmo cdm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Huang View Post
    Hi Lamar,

    Thanks so much for your warm welcome and kind response!

    The website you've provided is truly useful! I believe this shop would provide the correct items.

    However, I am too ignorant to pump organs and still not understand something... Would like to know that, is the term "bellow spring" refer to the Y-shape return spring that I've mentioned? From the picture at your provided website, bellow spring (451314) looks like a long plastic tube, but not something Y-shaped. Also, seems like none of the items shown in that picture looks Y-shape, or something similar to the shape I was looking for...

    Also, since the website mentioned both size and pressure, I think I could try to measure the dimension (although there is only one figure given e.g. 8'' long and I'm very unfamiliar to imperial units), but what tool that I could use to measure the lbs of pressure?

    Apologise for this lengthy questions as a complete beginner... hopefully you won't feel these questions stupid or annoying...

    Appreciates again!
    Patrick

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    Hi Casey,

    Thank you for pointing out! Yes, the valve flap is indeed missing. I was initially thinking that it's a comparatively minor issue so didn't point it out in this post.

    But as you said, this is also a key problem and need to be repaired properly. I will buy the leather strips from the shops posted by Lamar, would like to know that, do you have any suggestions about putting the leather strips on those holes - can I directly put it on by using some kind of glues?

    Cheers,
    Patrick

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    Hi Nico,

    Thank you so much for your warm welcome and kind guidance!

    Yes it should be the return spring, previously I don't know this term due to my limitation to English language and knowledge of organ...

    I am currently outside for vacation, but will try to remove it (any hints for avoiding breakage?) and take it to any engineering shop after I return home. Will definitely update once I have any progress.

    Cheers,
    Patrick
    Hey Patrick ... I am new here too and restoring a Kimball parlor model from early 1900's. You will get gobbs of good info from the guys here. Mine was missing the exhauster return springs also. I found a set of four on ebay from the same vendor SubBass is providing you with a link for here. They are the correct springs and the ones I received are in perfect condition. The price is great. As has been pointed out make sure the wood where these springs mount is all there; not cracked or missing pieces. Mine was ratched which is how the springs go missing. Also take a little caution handling these springs. They literally have teeth. Good luck with it.

  3. #13
    ppp Pianississmo Patrick Huang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silken Path View Post
    Hi, Patrick - I think it is the V-shaped metal thing, but it has a "hog-ring" holding it closed for shipping. Look closely and you can see the barbs sticking out of the ring. At least that's what I THINK it is.

    But - did you look at the ones on eBay that Casey mentioned? $21.98 is the buy-it-now price for all four and it has 17 days left. He's also showing $8.15 for economy shipping. I think I'd go with that.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-of-4-St...oRE&rmvSB=true
    Sorry for my late response and appreciate so much Lamar!

    I guess that's the proper explanation as well, a V-shape may not be good for shipping and it might be bind like this for easy shipping.

    Yes that item very suites me since it contains 4 sizes, and it's in very good price. I have purchased it and would like to install it once I get the item.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SubBase View Post
    I see you're in Worcester; down rt 20 in Palmer is Nelson Pease, who has buildings full of reed organs and parts. Bring the good spring with you and he can match it.
    nbpease@comcast.net
    say Casey sent you!
    Hi Casey,

    Sorry for my late response (actually didn't realise there're two pages).

    Yes I've found the address if I'm not mistaken: Pease Collection of Historical, 1351 Main St, Palmer, MA 01069, and I believe the host would be glad to know Casey sent me there!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cdm View Post
    Hey Patrick ... I am new here too and restoring a Kimball parlor model from early 1900's. You will get gobbs of good info from the guys here. Mine was missing the exhauster return springs also. I found a set of four on ebay from the same vendor SubBass is providing you with a link for here. They are the correct springs and the ones I received are in perfect condition. The price is great. As has been pointed out make sure the wood where these springs mount is all there; not cracked or missing pieces. Mine was ratched which is how the springs go missing. Also take a little caution handling these springs. They literally have teeth. Good luck with it.
    Hi,

    Thank you so much for your information

    It's my first time repairing the pump organ and hopefully things go well as your kind words mentioned!

  4. #14
    ppp Pianississmo Patrick Huang's Avatar
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    Hi Lamar, Nico & Casey,

    Here comes my update:

    I just bought the two sets of bellow springs from the ebay link from former reply. The size of smaller set fits, but with less elasticity - I just tried to set both springs at one side (simply inlay both on the wooden board and fix it with some tape), not sure whether new problem coming from this, but I guess it basically works.

    And yes as Casey pointed out, now the leather flap valve at one side is still missing and almost useless for moving air. I'm trying to buy one online and attach it - my remaining question is, should I simply attach the two ends of the flap valve by upholstery tacks, and do you think it is possible to use some kind of glue instead? (I'm afraid I will make irreversible damage and planning to try the way with minimum risk)

    Many thanks for all useful tips and I think the pump organ will survive soon

  5. #15
    ff Fortissimo SubBase's Avatar
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    Tacks, use the old tack holes if you can 3/8" tacks are usually the right length.
    The exact strength of the return springs isn't super-important, as long as those flap valves are not too tight, the more they can billow open, the easier the feeder will close.

  6. #16
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Hi, Patrick - Casey will correct me if I'm wrong here, but since that fish/hide glue is activated with water, water would later clean it up, soften it up, and remove it. I too think tacks are the trick - bet you see some holes if you look closely.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1999 Rodgers W5000C - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- 1899 Kimball pump organ (forum thread) -- Allen TC 4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  7. #17
    ff Fortissimo SubBase's Avatar
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    Glue gets into the leather and stiffens it so it won't flex any longer. Tacks were the rule for the fixed end at least, some makers like Estey and M&H on their best models used various devices to allow the flaps to open farther, letting the air out faster, allowing a lighter return spring.
    The early large-scale Philharmonic Esteys were the best; a 3" wide "staple" trapped a weighted wooden block hanging from the bottoms of the triple flap valves. More like a guide than a staple. But the escaping air pushed them open effortlessly, the weight made them return to the correct position at the end of the cycle. Of course, where the weight came against the guide it was padded with special fluffy felt so it worked silently.
    M&H used a spring to keep the valves just taut enough, but the wind would overcome the spring and the valves opened further. (than tacking both ends)
    You have to get the tension on the plain old flap valves just right or they make a farting noise.

  8. #18
    ff Fortissimo Organfella's Avatar
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    I have never seen those flap valves fastened with anything other than tacks, at least on one side. They attach and remove effortlessly, and can be re positioned if necessary without any problems. A word of warning here may be appropriate: If the original tacks are still in the board, remove them carefully, they are most certainly rusted by now and should they cause a scratch or cut on a careless finger, may result serious infection. Use a pair of long nosed pliers to gently pull them out. They do come out easily as their business ends are tapered into a sharp point.

    It certainly sounds as if the old gal will sing sweetly again once that flap valve is in place....

    Nico
    "Don't make war, make music!" Hammonds, Lowreys, Yamaha's, Gulbransens, Baldwin, Technics, Johannus. Reed organs. Details on request...

  9. #19
    ppp Pianississmo Patrick Huang's Avatar
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    Hi Lamar, Casey & Nico,

    Many thanks for all kinds of supports from you all! And here comes my update so far:

    I have replaced the return springs and fixed the new leather flap valve by tacks, and at least the organ is playable as normal now.

    But some small issues still remain. Probably due to my unprofessional installation, the valve is not installed closely as possible, so the air exhausted quickly and the player need to step the pedal quicker than normal to maintain appropriate sound volume/velocity. Plan to redo the pinning process later on.

    There is another minor problem but I don't know its cause. Sometimes the key is not rebounce and it sounds still when doing nothing but stepping the pedal, but it could be solved by repetitively pressing the corresponding key. I have recorded a video about that:

    In addition, one pulley for connecting belt between the bellow and pedal seems leaning leftwards, so when playing the organ, the connecting belt will lean leftwards, rubbing the wooden cap and slowly worn (as the following picture shows). This problem is relatively not big but not easy to fix to me - I may need to open up the organ to replace something, but it would be at risk when operating by a complete beginner like me... Currently I am using a stupid idea: sticking rubber tapes on the belt as a protective layer, so the tape would be worn instead. I need to frequently replace the rubber tape if keep playing like this...

    123.jpg

  10. #20
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Hi, Patrick,

    That looks like a misalignment due to where the belt connects to the pedal. It's easy to take out the screws that attach it to bellow, unfold the end where it is doubled, and then pull it through the roller. Then you can lean the pedal toward you and work on it. I used some load tie-down strap material that my dad had on hand (he was a trucker), but I'd get the softer woven webbing stuff for a permanent fix. Also, those rollers have pins that are literally dropped into slots in that board. If the roller is really deformed, you could try shimming up the slot. I suspect that aligning it on the pedal will fix that, however.

    Sometimes key response is changed due to humidity (!) but if you take off that long strip below the keyboard, which is called the "keyslip" for who knows what reason, you'll see the wooden dowel rods that activate the valves (pallets) below. Identify which one (it will be below the key, obviously) and gently see if it's sticky moving up and down. Make sure the coupler "fingers" aren't touching the felted ring under it. (They are adjusted by bending, but I suspect they respond by breaking.) Then work the key and see what happens. If you can lift up on the dowel and get a crisp cut-off, then it may be upstairs in the key mechanism that the binding is happening.

    Bear in mind that I'm an amateur and this is an amateur's advice. (But I am a Kimball using amateur.)

    Thanks for the update.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1999 Rodgers W5000C - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- 1899 Kimball pump organ (forum thread) -- Allen TC 4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

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