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Thread: Allen TC-4 Project

  1. #61
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Well, the connections on the bottom are going to be a problem. I've heard reference to an "Installation Manual" or "Installation Instructions." Has anyone seen one, and does it describe all the connections to be made? Thanks.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  2. #62
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    On the Allen 314 organ, which uses the same 915-01x power supply, the basement connections are called "gyro control terminal strip." It looks more involved than that on this organ. It includes the main power connection as well as power to the whind generator.

    It is unknown if the whind generator is still providing keying voltage for the organ, but the power FOR the whind generator comes from this strip. I do see one red wire connected to a keying spring in the upper manual, which may be a bypass to run the keying from the 14V magnet supply.

    The correct terminal locations for the cable ends -- two of them from gyro that end in plugs in the DC driver -- is unknown.

    And it appears that the speaker outputs are NOT in THIS terminal strip.

    So the current state of the plan is to connect the power at the terminals that go to the power supply and see if it has keying.

    Since I DO have schematics for the 100 gyro projector, at least I can determine what each connection in the cable is supposed to be. I may be able to determine what the connections are by looking at how many wires of what color come from the organ and go to the terminals. (I have some examples from the 314. Maybe they're the same.)

    And here's another question: would it be routine good practice to connect a wire to a device to a terminal on an organ that both are the same color? Say, a red wire to a terminal that has a red wire attached? (That would help down there.)
    Last edited by Silken Path; 07-11-2018 at 10:29 PM.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  3. #63
    mf Mezzo-Forte Larrytow's Avatar
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    Lamar,

    As you can tell from just comparing the two TC-4s you have, and looking at the ordering options that the other Larry provided you, you can see that there were Many ways your organ could be set up. It is good that you are asking lots of questions about getting one going again, but many of the items you are asking about ( like what goes where and so on ) are hard to visualize without GOOD PHOTOS !

    Please take and post some photos of the things you are describing in each question, and it will be much easier for the Allen gurus here ( and I'm not one, actually ) to give you advice. I'm sure that the collective wisdom here will help you with many things with this project, and this is just a suggestion to make helping you easier.

    Also, please Attach them, and don't insert them in a post. That way they can be seen in good size on peoples computer screens.
    Regards, Larry

    At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 ! ), E-5AR ( X 2, 1 parts, 1 not ), D80 ( parts ), FX-1, FX-20, HS-7T ( parts ), EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen organs : T12-A, T-12B, ADC-6000D. Baldwin 626. Hammond Concorde. Lowrey CH32-1. A bunch of Synthesizers and Keyboards. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with VISTA ), Hammond A105, Baldwin 720T, Several small and medium size pipe organs of many sorts and builders.

  4. #64
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice, Larry. Yes, I'll get some more pictures. I wonder how many we can actually post in one thread?

    TerminalStrip.jpg

    TerminalCables.jpg

    In these photos you can see how an attempt was made to label the connections. However, they don't line up with the terminals OR show all the wires. So my confidence is not great that I'd be picking the correct terminals.

    Here's what the cables do:

    D - (black) AC power main plug at organ
    E- (black) AC power female plug at equipment shelf
    F- (brown) gyro 4-prong plug
    G - (red) whind generator power connector
    Last edited by Silken Path; 07-12-2018 at 03:59 AM.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  5. #65
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Guys, here's a thought. Since I don't have a diagram of this space, but do have schematics of how OTHER Allen organs did this in that era, I can work from what I do know to what I don't know.

    For example, some of the terminals have to have 14V for the gyro and the whind generator. Get power on the organ, and I can go look for those. How to get power? Find the terminal that rings through to the switch. That's one side of the AC. Want to find the terminals for the gyro control? For one, find the terminal that goes to the Flutes Tremolo stop. Another will be 14V.

    And here's that wire going to the keying spring. My 1959 TC-4 has it, too. So there's a service letter about bringing a dead Allen back to life before Sabbath, and it says that a sick whind machine that won't key can be bypassed by sending the the 14V magnet supply to a convenient keying spring. So is this one of them, or just a normal hookup on Allens like this? Thanks for looking.

    KeyingSpringWire.JPG
    Last edited by Silken Path; 07-12-2018 at 06:19 PM.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  6. #66
    Moderator myorgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silken Path View Post
    OK - I found out about the tone strip. That's actually what it is. The stack is all the common connection points for all the stops and, on some Allens, maybe other things -- some of them may have 14V present, since that's what the magnets run on. One clue about this was on my first TC-4. It had a tag on one that said "Stage Gyro" and it also had a stop labeled the same. (I will have to study this more when I eventually go to MIDIfy the organ.)
    I think one of these is the strip you're referencing.
    R_IMG_9129.jpgR_IMG_9132.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by toodles View Post
    The tweeter Michael was thinking of is probably a phenolic ring tweeter--Amphenol is a manufacturer of connectors. Parts Express offers a modern phenolic ring tweeter so you don't have to go looking for used ones: https://www.parts-express.com/grs-pr...8-ohm--270-252
    Thank you, Toodles. My brain is leaking in my old age. I knew it didn't sound right, but I was somewhat close.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silken Path View Post
    First of all, I don't have confidence in the wiring markings inside the organ. They appear to be in some shorthand known only to the electricians in the company that took the organ out. (The guy I bought it from was not one of them in the church.) The writing does not match the wire labels exactly. I would like to find the documentation to be SURE about this.
    I know Allen has the ADC Audio Manual, but was any such thing available in the analog era?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silken Path View Post
    Thanks for the advice, Larry. Yes, I'll get some more pictures. I wonder how many we can actually post in one thread?
    Five.

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

  7. #67
    fff Fortississimo toodles's Avatar
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    The series of springs you are showing are the individual key crank shafts--pressing a key lifts the end near the key stick, causing the crank shaft to rotate through an angle causing the shaft to contact the individual pitch wires of the slides that have been pulled into contact position by the stop solenoids activated for the manuals.

    Thus, each of those key crank shafts must have keying voltage on it to key the oscillators. It looks like that red wire was the factory wired method to do that.

    Actually, at this point I'm rather confused at what you are try to do (except to reivive a TC-4).

    Can you summarize:

    1. The organ you are working on (the first or 2nd);
    2. Does the organ have the whind module or not, and if it does, is it hooked up?
    3. What is the power switch connected to? Usually it would be the input to the power supply for the whole organ.
    4. Post #31 has a photo of the back of one of the organs--if this is the one you are working on, there appears to be a small metal cover on the power supply in the right hand photo, left side of the power supply. The power connections might be under that cover.

  8. #68
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myorgan View Post
    I think one of these is the strip you're referencing.
    Nope, but those sure are clean and nice. I meant the long one on the far right side of the organ as viewed from the back. It's mostly the tie-points for the stops plus some other stuff. It shows in my image on page 4 of this thread.

    I'm right at the limit for five images now, or maybe a bit over it. I shall go back to putting them in an album and linking them here.

    My speakers should be in tomorrow. Today I pasted some 2x2 lengths on the plywood cover over the 1,000 pound plastic doily the organ is sitting on. I hope that will keep the organ from moving around on the plywood. The first one I tried broke in half when I had the other organ on it, which is why I decided to distribute the weight better.

    Right after doing this, there started a thunderstorm, so I ran into the office to play the pump organ.

    Tomorrow I will start ringing out the connections, starting with the three power connections. Don't know about an audio manual for the analogs. I suspect that I need detailed drawings, like a build sheet, for this particular organ. Fellow "562" at the factory installed the generators, power-supply, and the splitters in the speakers. Pretty neat - give it an input and it provides two outputs - one high, one low. (I'm not sure I actually understand it correctly.)

    This organ is more like a 314 in the power supply and lower deck than the ASM, which is detailed for my '59.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  9. #69
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toodles View Post
    The series of springs you are showing are the individual key crank shafts--pressing a key lifts the end near the key stick, causing the crank shaft to rotate through an angle causing the shaft to contact the individual pitch wires of the slides that have been pulled into contact position by the stop solenoids activated for the manuals.

    Thus, each of those key crank shafts must have keying voltage on it to key the oscillators. It looks like that red wire was the factory wired method to do that.
    Thanks. I had no idea what I was looking at.

    Quote Originally Posted by toodles View Post
    Actually, at this point I'm rather confused at what you are try to do (except to reivive a TC-4).

    Can you summarize:

    1. The organ you are working on (the first or 2nd);
    2. Does the organ have the whind module or not, and if it does, is it hooked up?
    3. What is the power switch connected to? Usually it would be the input to the power supply for the whole organ.
    4. Post #31 has a photo of the back of one of the organs--if this is the one you are working on, there appears to be a small metal cover on the power supply in the right hand photo, left side of the power supply. The power connections might be under that cover.
    Sure.

    1. The second organ - I'm going to try to use the 1959 for parts. It was too severely hacked to repair in a reasonable timeframe... and I got amps and speakers with this one, as well as a newer organ and a beautiful pedalboard.
    2. The organ does have whind. It's the two part generator with tremolo on the other side. I don't where to get that B+ from the whind generator into organ, or if the four-prong shielded plug on the whind generator actually does it through the (red) cable to the bottom terminal strip.
    3, 4. The power cord was in a pile of wires. So far it's not hooked up. I think I can figure that out by tracing out the switch, and the other end will be straight into the power supply. Some terminal ends were under a plastic cover. It looks to me that the organ is also providing power for the junction box on the equipment shelf. I would have thought it'd have its own power supply, but it has a 12-ft cable like the others.

    Right now I'm just trying to figure out the connections to the power & gyro control panel on the floor, which is pictured above, and find out if I am *missing* any necessary cables. The labels on the floor leave out some of the wires. I think I can methodically, laboriously find out where each terminal goes. Larry AllenAnalog can help me with the gyro connections, but I found schematics for PART of the power strip AND the gyro control part of the strip (with my 100 gyro) in the 314 manual. The 314 uses the same power supply that is in this organ.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  10. #70
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    I may have figured out something. As shown previously, I have the power cable labeled E and the equip. shelf labeled D. On the bottom of the organ was written

    W E D D/E Black

    Since that "W" was next to white wire on the other side, I was trying to keep it white, ie grouped with other cables (gyro control). Ah, so. Try it with the "W":

    White E D Black D E

    Two white, two black - Tried that on the closest four terminals. Now it has continuity in the AC plug halves when the power switch is engaged. I know that all that proves is that it has continuity with the switch, but after two days of looking and reading, it feels like progress.

    If I'm not back tomorrow, I probably plugged it in.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

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