The Organ Forum

Myself and many others offer technical advice on the repair and maintenence of electronic/electrical equipment in threads of this forum. Does a disclaimer exist warning the user of this information "at your own risk"? I regularly work with electicity and electronic equipment and understand how to do it safely. I'm not so sure about some other users (No offense to anyone this is a generalization.) and none of us has a clue about those just brousing through.

Myself and others do try to make safety warnings when apropriate but this is not always possible. A simple look through a modern owners manual with all of its disclaimers and warnings of injury or death not to mention what a service manual has to say about the subject is pretty scarey. I don't remember what I agreed to when I joined this group years ago and what about a guest just scanning for info? I would hate to see someone get sued if someone ignored a simple common sense safety proceedure that everyone should know and practice but few of us do. 

My 2C,

H101

 

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1955 Hammond RT3, HR40 & Leslie 251 wired as 147
1961 Hammond M101 (Thanks Chuck!)

good idea to keep that in mind. I have so often been so helped by so many wonderful people on this forum. It really means alot to me personally to have this incredible resource for all types of organs. And yes they can be VERY dangerous.... i've been shocked pretty badly by a few Hammonds....(always replace the chords with new when you get one..no matter how good they look). :)

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www.nycfarmboy.com
www.reuter822.com

I've been shocked by Hammonds before too--however, it was the sound--not the cord!

Seriously, though, it is probably a good idea to put a disclaimer on the Welcome page--or even in the header of the page.  Some of us seem to forget from time to time that this forum is searchable via Google without ever joining.  In fact, if you search for a specific model of Allen Organ, Google is more likely to have a link here than to Allen's website.  If a non-member were to use information found here and suffer harm, that might cause a legal issue.

Perhaps there are some attorneys in the forum who could advise here?  I'd hate to see the forum affected/altered because of some dolt who misapplied information given here.

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Allen Organs (505-B & ADC-6000), Frazee Pipe Organ (2/13 w/chimes),
Pump Organs (Estey, Sears & Roebuck, Mason & Hamlin, Chicago Cottage, Williams & Sons, Angelius, Cornish)
Pianos (Ivers sq. grand ca.1865, Ivers & Pond Upright-1929, Technics SX-PR600)

If there was no such disclaimer, a court case against the forum, its owners and administrators over self injury due to electric shock would be a frivolous case of the highest order. Thus its probability of standing up in court would be dismal. I mean, think of the idiocy! Some shmuck wants to sue an internet forum because he believed members mislead him into shocking himself? I know this is the land of lawsuits, but we're stretching it here.

Plus, you generally don't get sued for damages if you don't have the money to pay. If you were working the time the offense occurred, the plaintiff could sue the employer - there's more money in that. Lawyers generally aren't looking to settle with private cases where little or no profit could be made from them, it's simply uneconomical.

However just to cover our butts I think it would be wise to put up a disclaimer, just to avoid court bills. 

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First they came for the ABC consoles, then they came for the older consoles. When they finally got to the spinets, they were all gone.

Hammondlover:

However just to cover our butts I think it would be wise to put up a disclaimer, just to avoid court bills. 

You got it Hammondlover. Even if you prevail in a lawsuit, the cost of defense can be incredable. I give technical advice almost every day at work (non-organ related). Most calls are from dealers who have the responsibility of safe practice when servicine engines and equipment. I do not however give any technical advice to consumers outside of what is printed in an owners manual for the product they own. If they want more info I explain the liability issue and suggest they purchase a service manual with all the warnings in it to "cover our butts" as HL says. I work with high temperatures, gasoline and electricity daily not to mention sharp parts. One wrong move and someone could get hurt.

I haven't been shocked by a Hammond yet but I have gotten bit by a Fender amp or two. They make a real nice hum while they bite you! I did it just the other day and that started me thinking about the advice we give here.

Thanks for eveyones support. If no disclaimer appears at least we will be a little more aware of what we post and the potential for injury.

H101

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1955 Hammond RT3, HR40 & Leslie 251 wired as 147
1961 Hammond M101 (Thanks Chuck!)

And you guys are just talking Hammonds and toasters, let's not even touch real pipes with a 39 1/2 ft. poll (Mr. Grinch), after all there is the lead content of pipes, the possibility to knock your head pretty good (ouch!!), the blower and it is all runby electricity (well,  ok, som trackers allow you toi pump the bellows, but as a generalization)
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Once you can tie your arms into a pretzel and your legs into a knot, you've got it under control

The Communications Decency Act of 1996 gives certain rights to website and domain owners which absolve them of any wrong-doing that is caused by the users of their websites.  (feel free to look this one up) -- in the interest of keeping information and advice flowing, I would suggest that the gurus on this website NOT censor their comments, as it contradicts what this site was originally designed to do:  Provide a quorum for the mutual respect, discussion, and idea generation regarding the organ.  I wouldn't necessarily wait for the owners of Organ Forum to post a disclaimer, because, well, honestly, they're already absolved!

But, say, for example, that you fear that your advice might catch you in an uncompromising situation.  My suggestion would be to take a common sense approach.  Are organs inherently more dangerous that any other electrical device?  Of course not.  The ultimate responsibility lies with the end-user who must either accept or reject the advice.  Now, if you maliciously gave advice to someone about dropping a hairdryer in a bath-tub, that would be quite another scenario.  In the end, you must decide for yourself if your advice is sound and reasonable, or is wanton, egregious, or malicious -- and I doubt that any of you have those thoughts in mind.  I wouldn't worry.

However, if you are still concerned, simply state - "But do so at your own risk." --- but is that really necessary?  Doubtful.

Personally, I'd worry more about hitting someone with my car than giving advice on an organ forum.  Fair?

Best,
Matthew

P.S.  Am I a lawyer?  No.  But I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. 

oakley140:

Now, if you maliciously gave advice to someone about dropping a hairdryer in a bath-tub, that would be quite another scenario.

Dropping an organ into a bathtub is just as risky.  Don't do it!

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Soubasse32

Ha ha  --- I'm cracking up at that one!

oakley140:

Personally, I'd worry more about hitting someone with my car than giving advice on an organ forum.  Fair?

Matthew,

Thanks for your 2C. More than fair. The big difference to me is I can & do buy insurance to protect my assets and property in case I have an accident. I don't know if the personal liability coverage of my home owners policy would extend to a web posting. Below is what is posted on a Fender guitar and amp forum:

"Questions and comments about repairing, modifying, or building an amp. DISCLAIMER: Working on amps can be very dangerous, even fatal, if you don't know what you're doing. The FDP is not liable for damages due to following any advice offered herein."

I am in no way trying to be argumentative but common sense and logic do not seem to prevail in our legal system. Thanks for the info on CDA ot 1996. I wonder if it extends to all who post in "good faith"

Best,

H101

 

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1955 Hammond RT3, HR40 & Leslie 251 wired as 147
1961 Hammond M101 (Thanks Chuck!)