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Thread: 16' Salicional/Gambe extension

  1. #1

    16' Salicional/Gambe extension

    Hello forumers-


    I've got a very small organ; right now, only a single salicional rank that plays at 8' and 4' (on 4" wp). What I would like to do though, is add a 12 note bass extension to bring it down into the 16' octave, so I could convince myself that having a pedalboard is worth the trouble.


    Of course there's always the possibility of searching Ebay or Craigslist in hopes that the bottom octave of a Bourdon or Subbass would come available, but I was hoping that instead, I could use the measurements from the pipes I already have, and build my own.


    Well, I'm not entirely sure if what I've done so far is correct, but here's what I've got:

    <ul>[*]The bottom octave will have to be of stopped wood, for space reasons. (I realize this will cut down the harmonics significantly, but hopefully with some sort of bridge, I'll be able to level it out to a more even match.)
    [*]The basic construction of the pipe will be what Audsley called the Contrabass.
    [*]The measurements of CCC (Width and Depth of the languid, Wood thickness) came from Laukhuff's Catalog for a small scaled Bourdon.
    [*]From those starting measurements, I used this formula.
    [*]To calculate the mouth height, I measured the CC from my current salicional rank, and found the ratio between mouth height and width to be 3/8. I used that ratio for the entire bottom octave.[/list]


    All in all, here are the numbers I came up with:
    <table style="border: 1px dotted rgb(10, 30, 150);">
    <tbody>
    <tr>
    <td>Note</td>

    <td>Wood Thickness</td>

    <td>Mouth Height</td>

    <td>Block Width</td>

    <td>Block Depth</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>CCC</td>

    <td>0.630</td>

    <td>1.624</td>

    <td>4.370</td>

    <td>5.512</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>CCC#</td>

    <td>0.630</td>

    <td>1.569</td>

    <td>4.185</td>

    <td>5.278</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>DDD</td>

    <td>0.591</td>

    <td>1.503</td>

    <td>4.007</td>

    <td>5.054</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>DDD#</td>

    <td>0.591</td>

    <td>1.439</td>

    <td>3.837</td>

    <td>4.840</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>EEE</td>

    <td>0.551</td>

    <td>1.378</td>

    <td>3.675</td>

    <td>4.635</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>FFF</td>

    <td>0.551</td>

    <td>1.320</td>

    <td>4.519</td>

    <td>4.438</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>FFF#</td>

    <td>0.512</td>

    <td>1.264</td>

    <td>3.370</td>

    <td>4.250</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>GGG</td>

    <td>0.512</td>

    <td>1.210</td>

    <td>3.227</td>

    <td>4.070</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>GGG#</td>

    <td>0.472</td>

    <td>1.159</td>

    <td>3.090</td>

    <td>3.897</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>AAA</td>

    <td>0.472</td>

    <td>1.110</td>

    <td>2.959</td>

    <td>3.732</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>AAA#</td>

    <td>0.433</td>

    <td>1.063</td>

    <td>2.834</td>

    <td>3.574</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>BBB</td>

    <td>0.433</td>

    <td>1.012</td>

    <td>2.714</td>

    <td>3.422</td>
    </tr>
    </tbody></table>

    Well, that's all the work I've done so far. My question, though, is that all justifiable and correct? If I build the pipes using those dimensions, will I have a stringlike bass octave that will play on 4", and sound at least close to matching a salicional sound?


    Update:
    Last night I went into my Church's organ to measure the dimensions of their subbass they have, voiced on 3.5" wp. Here's how the measurements compare:
    <table style="border: 1px dotted rgb(10, 30, 150);">
    <tbody>
    <tr>
    <td>
    </td>
    <td>My Rank</td>
    <td>Subbass</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>Internal Width:</td>
    <td>2.383</td>
    <td>3.750</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>Internal Depth:</td>
    <td>3.01</td>
    <td>5.500</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>Mouth Height:</td>
    <td>0.894</td>
    <td>1.250</td>
    </tr>

    <tr>
    <td>Wood Thickness:</td>
    <td>0.374</td>
    <td>0.625</td>
    </tr>
    </tbody></table>




    Thanks,

    lilshu

  2. #2

    Re: 16' Salicional/Gambe extension



    Well, I have an Austin 16' String extension octave mitered for under 7' you can have if you like - it's in New Haven CT. *It needs a little TLC but is not in terrible shape.</p>

    *</p>

    ** * *- Nate*</p>

  3. #3

    Re: 16' Salicional/Gambe extension



    It would have to be shipped to South Carolina; would you be willing to deal with that hassle? I know that can be a problem for many people... But if you choose to do so, I'd happily pay for time, supplies, and shipping.
    </p>

    -lilshu
    </p>

  4. #4

    Re: 16' Salicional/Gambe extension

    Ah well, I guess the prospect of shipping ended any chance of that. No worries, I can live without.



    Anyway, I've got more questions! At the moment, my organ uses an old mechanical gangswitch that was recycled from a local church, when they switched over to solid state. Well, after getting mine wired and ready, I can see why they switched. Oh so many contact wires bent or blackened...



    Does anyone have any knowledge about the Syndyne's keying system? (Installation ease, price, etc?)
    From the looks of it, I'll need a main controller board, 2 manual inputs, a pedal input, and 4 rank control boards.


    -lilshu

  5. #5
    Senior Member Menschenstimme's Avatar
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    Re: 16' Salicional/Gambe extension



    I believe Syndyne products, while not inexpensive,to be of excellent quality. And their customer support is also good. I would say thesame about Peterson.</P>


    Sometimes you can find a good dealonsecond-hand Peterson systems on the Church Organ Trader. However, you must have the knowledge to rework the system to fit your current needs. Peterson is not able to provide extensive "re-engineering" advice to second-hand purchasers; neither should they be expected to do so.</P>


    Good luck!</P>

  6. #6

    Re: 16' Salicional/Gambe extension

    i highly recommend Syndyne....I don't have any experience with the others, ...the syndyne system is expandable and as noted their customer support is EXCELLENT...great folks to work with....they have talked me thru any issue I have had with great patience and great concern to make sure I was doing things correctly........while not cheap i do believe they are less expensive than the other systems, and the system is so easy to change/reconfigure.


    You can, for instance...with one rank of pipes and a Syndyne driver board program that single rank to be a:

    16'/8'4' on the pedal....

    16'/8'/4'/2'/1' on the great

    16'/8'/4'/2' 2/3', 1 3/5' and one more..that I forget at the moment..but you can have a Tierce and a Larigot as well from the same rank for the swell....so you can see where you'd have 15 stops from one rank of pipes!


    pretty neat..and believe it or not...in reality it is really quite useful and workable....


    When I had my organ heavily unitized I had the salicional as a 8', 4', and Tierce on the Swell....8' and 4' on the great...and 8' on the pedal.....but if I had room I'd definately add ALL those stops from the same rank as it makes the organ much more versatile.






    NOW..some advice: Add a Gedeckt 16/8/4..it will make that organ a much more interesting intstrument to play at home..and Gedeckt pipes sound great in person....salicionals are in my opinion one of the least "pleasant" sounding stops in a home organ (excepting reeds) unless you can add digital reverberation (strings really need reverb to sound good).


    My 2 cents!

  7. #7

    Re: 16' Salicional/Gambe extension



    I'll keep a watch on the Organ Trader for some used sets. I have a friend who I believe does a lot of work with the solid state switching, so I'm sure he'd lend me a hand if I couldn't figure everything out. (Although by looking at the product pictures of the different boards on Syndyne's website, it seems pretty straightforward.) Will they throw me the same "Proffesionals only" loop like OSI does if I contact them about buying a system some day in the future?</p>



    But NYCFarmboy, I'm definitely going to rely on some heavy unitizing for my organ, at 4 or 5 ranks max, I want to get as many different registrations as possible. And so far as adding more ranks, I definitely am planning on it. I've worked out a kind of "maybe someday" stoplist, that'll give me a nicer fundamental sound than the Sal:</p>


    Pedal:

    16' Subbass<br? 16-8-4="" fagot="" trumpet="" clarion="" from="" mii="" [expressive]=""> (Although I may just do a 16' extension of the Gedeckt...)

    </br?>16-8-4 Fagot/Trumpet/Clarion [expressive, borrowed from Manual II]
    And pretty much everything important from the manuals will show up down here.
    </p>

    <br? 16-8-4="" fagot="" trumpet="" clarion="" from="" mii="" [expressive]="">Manual I:

    8 Dulciana

    8 Gedeckt


    Manual II:

    8 Salicional [Maybe expressive as well? It definitely needs something to shut it up. [] ]

    16-8-4 Fagot/Trumpet/Clarion [expressive]


    I'm not sure if I've really done a good job choosing stop types, but I've tried to think of ones that compliment each other. The 16' Reed I may end up throwing out, but I really do like the tones it adds to the pedal. (Oh, and maybe I'll add a Celeste to the Sal. I guess the Dulciana would be another option to celeste, but I was hoping that would serve as the diapason sound.)
    </br?></p>

  8. #8
    Senior Member Menschenstimme's Avatar
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    Re: 16' Salicional/Gambe extension



    Will they through me the same "Proffesionals only" loop like OSI does, if I contact them about buying a system some day in the future?</P>


    OSI requires their customers to have a business license as an organ professional. I speculate that there are more reasons for this that the one(s) they officially give. In my limited experience, they are the only such firm in the USA that has this requirement. Klann, Peterson, Syndyne, Artisan, Schopps, Hesco and others arereceptive and helpful to us organ folks, whether we do this officially to make our living or not.I apologizefor not naming others who I should have named; I mentioneda fewwhocome to mindright now.</P>

  9. #9

    Re: 16' Salicional/Gambe extension




    The only reason I managed to get from them is because they don't provide customer support for their products... That doesn't seem too logical of a concern for manual return springs, and contact plates... But I'm glad that Syndyne would be willing to work with me on this. Sometime this week I may contact them, asking them to list what I'd need. Maybe I'll be able to get everything bought and hooked up over my Thanksgiving break (Maybe I'll be able to finish off purchasing the other ranks also!)</p>



    Anyway, I've been (for lack of better words) scheming up a stop list!

    Rank I: Salicional (73 Pipes, at 8' and 4')

    Rank II: Fagott (73/85 Pipes, at 16' and 8', maybe 4')

    Rank III: Gedeckt (73/85 Pipes, at 16' and 8', maybe 4')

    Rank IV: Dulciana (73 Pipes, at 8' and 4')




    <div style="border: 1px dotted rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 10px; padding-top: 5px;">
    Pedal:

    32' Gravissima (Rnk III)

    16' Bourdon (Rnk III)

    8' Tonbass (Rnk III)

    8' Gambenprincipal (Rnk IV)

    4' Choralbass (Rnk IV)

    8' Viol (Rnk I)

    16' Fagott (Rnk II)

    4' Oboe Clarion

    Raushmixture II (Rnk I 2-2/3'&amp;2')

    </div>


    <div style="border: 1px dotted rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 10px; padding-top: 5px;">
    Great:

    16' Dulcianabass (TC) (Rnk IV)

    16' Bourdon (Rnk III)

    8' Gambenprincipal (Rnk IV)

    8' Gedeckt (Rnk III)

    8' Salicional (Rnk I)

    4' Flautodolce (Rnk III)

    4' Dulciana (Rnk IV)

    2' Superoctave (Rnk I)

    8' Oboe&amp;Fagotto (Rnk II)

    </div>


    <div style="border: 1px dotted rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 10px; padding-top: 5px;">
    Swell:

    16' Celloviolin (TC) (Rnk I)

    8' Echo Diapason (Rnk IV)

    8' Violin (Rnk I)

    8' Holzgedeckt (Rnk I)

    4' Flautino (Rnk III)

    4' Dulcian (Rnk IV)

    4' Violetta (Rnk I)

    2-2/3' Nazard (Rnk III)

    1-1/3' Larigot (Rnk I)

    16' Fagott (Rnk II)

    8' Trompett (Rnk II)

    4' Clarion (Rnk II)

    </div>


    So... Whadya think...?

  10. #10

    Re: 16' Salicional/Gambe extension



    It's been a good day today-my new reservoir is hooked up, I've gotten the facade pipes wired and playing (after having to replace three chest magnets I somehow managed to kill). To top things off, I go to the Church Organ Trader website to find a 73 note Dulciana rank for sale, within driving distance! The only problem though, is that these are voiced on 7" of wind, rather than the 4" I am using. How hard would it be (if possible at all) to get them to speak on 4"?
    -lilshu
    </p>

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