Basics and pedalling

[Mastagon]

Hello. I just moved into my new house 3 weeks ago. Since moving, I've been in real need of a place to practice tuba (house does not work at all). One of the managers of a church across the street from my house was kind enough to help me out. She cut me a key so that I can practice whenever I want. Luckily for me, I live in a very small town so the church is basically empty through the week except on sundays of course.

Anyway, I've been playing guitar for 8 years, bass for 6 years, , piano for 3 years and my primary instrument, tuba, for 3 years.

Now, I was just going to use the church to practice tuba, I need to work on my audition pieces, but ... Well, as soon as I walked in, i saw it just sitting there. Their organ. It's a poopy eletric cantor organ, 2 mauals, 25 stops, but... I've always wanted to play organ.

Since I became obsessed with Bach, I've known and loved every organ work (relatively) he wrote. Needless to say, with no one aroud to hear me play, I started to learn how to play the thing.

It's so much fun. Too much fun! I have to hold myself back, cause Im sure that if i didnt, i would never play tuba again.

As of this message, I started playing 5 or so days ago.

ANYWAY. Here's my question.

First question! :really silly one

What's the use of having 2 manuals? Other then having 2 pre-configurable "sounds" for easy switch between?

Or, using these 2 manuals configured to 'sound' different to allow greater clarity between many voices. For example- soft, warm bass (pedal) acomp by smooth flute-like tenor with piercing oboe riding suprano. Is this the point of 2 manuls? I'm at a loss.

(not a question!) I agree whole heartedly with a previous threads comment on playing with shoes. I find it pretty hard to play heal-two rapidly without the extention of a shoes heel. It's of course easier to find the notes without shoes, but my toes start to get a little stiff. Sooooo.

Second question!:

I'm having a little difficultly 'footing' the pedalling for the first pedal solo in Toccata and Fugue in F major-BWV 540. It's easy to the 4th bar, but some parts after that, though i can play using different footings, im not sure what are the 'correct' ones. (Yes, you'll need your music for this one)

Without going too far into detail, here's what i have from 4th to 6th bar of the solo.

4th) right toe-heel-toe (Bb,A,Bb) left toe, right toe, left toe (F, D, Bb)

5th) right toe, left toe, right toe (C, Bb, C) left toe, right toe, left toe (A, D, A)

6th) right toe-heel-toe (Bb, A, Bb) left toe, right toe left toe (G, C, G)


I wont go any father then that cause I dont expect anyone to go over the entire solo in this cumbersome manner.

My question begins after the D in the 4th measure of the solo. Previously, the patter of three (eg, f-e-f, or Bb-a-Bb) can be played with one foot easily (toe-heel-toe). This, I know is definately preferable. This pattern though, stretches after the "D" where, though in some situations i can use one foot, I'm not sure if thats preferable. For example, I can use my right foot for the a-d-a in measure 5 or , which saves me moving both feet, but it is a bit of awkward. Should i use the awkward footing, practing it so it becomes less awkward, or should I simply use 2 feet?

I know Im not being very clear on. Obviously I can't like be, only having played for 5 days. I hope someone would take the time to help me out, or maybe even send me their own "footings" or accepted 'footing' for this passage.

Thanks. Bye bye for now

[chimay]

1. Why have more than one manual? Because it's THERE. No, really, it originally began because the second manual was connected to a second division (e.g., Great organ, Swell organ, Choir organ). You will also learn of trio sonatas, where the pedal, right hand, and left hand all have different melodies and should be voiced with three distinct voices. Also, in much of organ music the melodies cross, and they cannot be played on a single manual!

2. Without the music in front of me, I can't give an instant answer. I've been an organ student for just a year, and much of my studies have been pedal work. heel-toe is not always used, the construction of the pedals has changed since the 1700s. J.S. Bach's pedal playing was mostly toe-toe.

I hope that there is an organ player in town who can show you some more basics.

It must be nice to live across the street from a practice organ- I've taken up the organ after 30 years of woodwind instruments. I finally have an instrument I like to practice- but my church is twenty miles away!

cheers

[CMStrack]

Post deleted by author

[Mastagon]

Aha. So the reason for 2 manuals is mostly what i thought. Though I didnt think about each manual representing certain organ divisions. That makes sence now. (especially with the finger crossing)

As to Chimay,

I have heard the trio sonatas. Great things. Especially in the hands of Virgil....

there is no organist i this town that would be adaquet at "showing me the basics". There is prolly more people in our graveyard then there are living!

I've worked on the solo a while since my last post, and am definately 3/4 of the way through a good set of "footings". (side note, what are the damn thing actually called? piano has fingerings, pedal has....) Now im mainly working on the placing (how high up or down on each pedal) of each heel or toe to keep them out of the way of the other foot.

Loads and loads of fun. Anyway, thanks for your help guys.

[j_weidinger]

Whoa! Nice, it is hard to believe that you've picked one of the hardest pedalboard solo toccatas is all of Bachs works, are you playing the lag melodies in the beginning of the toccatas also? Its wicked hard, 2 measures behind, playing all the way though. I have been practicing Bach's greatest piece for 4 months, about a half to 4 hours daily, and still hold up a small town church position, and after 4 months I'am not near victory.
CD: suggestions of Toccata in F major are E. Power Biggs, Bach great organ works.
He is especially better at that type of strict melodies like fugues than Fox is.
If you buy organ shoes, the toe heel thang is alot easier, as im told.
Next try learning the Great Toccata and Fugue in D minor
CD: Suggestions, E. Power Biggs, Virgil Fox, Paulo Pauloni(performs at CUBE)(the best recording of this song I have yet to find at...http://orgel.com/cube/music-e.html)(bottom of page sord of).
Thanks
Joseph

[Mastagon]

Yeah. Worked on it a bit again since i posted, and i got my "footings" down.

Now, I must work on speed, accuracy, articulation and 'smoothness'. The large interval jumps for the right foot could be a little more accurate. At least, when played closer to full speed (cant handel that yet, obviously).

I've also unscrewed the lightbulb for the pedalboard. The church is pitch black when i practice at night, and I need something to deture me from looking at my feet.

No, I haven't started working on the lag melodies yet. I can play the piano well, but not so much the pedal, so im tackling it first. I can't wait to get the pedal down for the whole piece and start working on introducing each hand. I love this piece!

I've never heard Fox's toccata F, though I have heard he takes the pedal solo's at breakneck speed. (something i dont really want to do, but dont get my wrong, I love Virg!)

By "Great Toccata and Fugue in D minor" you mean BWV-565 one right? I like the 538 better. (the fugue more so though). I might sink my teeth into both though.

I was a little suprised with how easy I took up the pedalling though. I think it might be cause I've listened to more then my share of organ music and have a good ear, so I maybe got some sort of "feel" before I started.

Dont know though, if i keep this up, i might stop playing tuba all-together! Organ is soooo much fun.

Alright, here I go.

[j_weidinger]

Ok.
not to be insulting but it says in All the stops by craig whitney, that virgil fox plays the toccata at lighting speeds. Try going to the virgil fox society. Very informative.
I play the french horn in my band, and got second chair in central state district band in missouri, im from vienna, which reminds me, where are u from, anyway im leaning out of the french horn, even though i could be very good on it someday. But the organ is just a differnt level, that most people don't understand. I live in a town in Vienna Missouri with 628 ppl 100 yr old church... pretty big, but the only downside, is that living in a small town makes going to schools like Rochesters' Eastmen School of Music, Impossible.
Anyway
Yes, the lag melodies are so hard to get at first. Keep all the work up on all instruments. As it will make you a better counter, in these Fugues and Toccatas.
Good night

[Mastagon]

I'm not sure how I would take that as an insult. You dont seem to be making a correction, so much as referencing my statement. Even if it were insulting, I wouldnt take it badly. I mean, I've only been playing organ for little over a week 1/2. Dont know much about it....

Been to the virgil fox society. It is. Also read "the dish" (fox biography). Its cool.


My town probly has 40 people in it, so its not really a town, so much as a fixation of a few houses.

I live in Ontario, Canada.

I love the organ. I think have a desect grasp on it.

Havent had a chance to play in a few days, Been at my friends cant wait to do it!

Alright, dont have anymore time here, im toast.

[j_weidinger]

O sorry, I was looking in the book when I was writing the statement, but it turns out that, it was another song that he performed too fast for the songs orginal tempo, but I couldn't find it back, I only had time to look for less than 5 minutes.
Sorry for the confusion.
Good Luck,
Thanks
Joseph

[Mastagon]

Well. I'm having some trouble fingering Fugue in D minor BWV 538. I'm not sure how the middle voice should be tossed between my hands. For example, when the 3rd voice is introduced, i play the first 3 or so notes of it with my left hand (in addition to the 2nd voice). Doing so with the right hand would be much more difficult. So in places where the interval between voices is to large for both to be handled by, lets say, the right hand, it should be passed to left. That's obvious. My difficulty is understanding how registration factors in.

For a fugue on piano, I've no problem. All the voices sound the same (excluding articulation). Not the case for the organ.
For this, or any such fugue, how is it acceptable to play 3 voices with the "middle" voice being tossed between two different manuals, with different sounds. (i.e. swell and great) I suppose i could overcome this by doubling up on the manulas by coupling them so they sound the same, (i.e. like a fugue on piano) but doesnt this take away from the clarity of each voice and thus the clarity overall?

Wouldnt it be ideal for each voice to be different and distinct, without the whole sounding muddled? This, of course, it not possible with this fugue. But with 2 hands and feet, at least 3 of the 4 voices could sound distinct. Or does that even matter at all? Other then any responce I will get, I can listen to my little collection of organ recording and see how the masters handel the problem.

Thanks!