Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 30 of 30

Thread: Minister of Music compared to MD/Organist who "develops the music ministry"

  1. #21
    pp Pianissimo voet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    SW Michigan
    Posts
    93
    Quote Originally Posted by jbird604 View Post
    RE: being honest with the priest... I wouldn't encourage you to do otherwise, especially if you know him well enough to trust him with a spiritual matter like that, and trust him not to have a knee-jerk reaction. It may be perfectly good to be fully open with one priest or pastor, and then turn out to be disastrous to do the same with another one.
    John, thank you for sharing your story. It was very moving. I am glad you have found a place where you found acceptance.

    I have been very fortunate to have worked with clergy who I always felt I could confide in. Perhaps the most dramatic incident involved a priest in the Episcopal church. I had been director of music for a small Episcopal church in a small town for 10 years. During this time, my religious views gradually changed. It started when I felt uncomfortable saying some of the things in the creed that I did not believe. Because the organ and choir were in the front of the church, it would be obvious if I stopped saying the creed, so I went to the back of the church during the sermon and stayed there until after the creed was recited.

    Later, I began to feel hypocritical receiving communion. Eventually I stopped. While people noticed that, I was never questioned about it. However, when a new priest arrived, I felt I needed to be open with her about where I was in this matter. I did not want her to think that I had a problem receiving communion from a woman, so I scheduled an appointment with her and told her my story. At the end I said, "I realize that you may not want me to continue here as Director of Music." She responded that she understood and that it was OK adding "I've been there."

    I realize that in some churches I would have been asked to leave. I appreciate her acceptance and realize that it was indeed a gift to me.

  2. #22
    p Piano Steve Freides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Ridgewood, NJ, USA
    Posts
    181
    Quote Originally Posted by regeron View Post
    Then again, come to think of it, no pastor has actually seriously asked me about my understanding of spiritual matters; either because they're afraid to, or they think it'll just be a waste of time - because I'm not ordained, there's no way I could have any kind of opinion that counts.
    Interestingly, I had such conversations with several members of my congregation, and I did have one with the minister at the time who hired me - at the time of my hiring, it was me who started the conversation because I really wanted my point of view to be known.

    -S-

  3. #23
    Moderator jbird604's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Arkansas, USA
    Posts
    6,408
    Interesting point made up there somewhere about the often limited experiences of pastors. I'd not thought of it that way, but it is very much the truth. So many of them have lived in an "ivory tower" all their lives, having been "special" since childhood, protected, growing up in deeply pious families, then straight to seminary and bypassing the world of the common folk, never having to confront difficult issues. No wonder many of them just can't understand people who don't fit the mold that they think God casts us all in.

    Not all pastors grow up like that of course. Some come from very un-spiritual backgrounds or spend part of their life in other careers or even in "sin" before getting the call. But sometimes even the ones who have "been there and done that" still don't want to emphathize with folks whose spiritual outlook doesn't match the one they've adopted since they "got right with God."

    The older I get, the more I believe that nearly all the judgments and barriers and categories and sins and such that we have been taught and preached to about are phony, that God is not bothered by the various differences among his human children in most areas of behavior other than the way we treat one another. If we love one another and treat one another fairly and without prejudice and judging, God is surely pleased.
    John
    ----------
    Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
    Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
    Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
    Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

  4. #24
    p Piano Horseshoe_or's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Phoenix AZ
    Posts
    204
    I am a retired bishop. I would find it impossible to have a minister of music who did not believe in the statements in the Creed. It is interesting that denominations that don't hold to the Creed are dying and that all the mega churches, while they don't recite the Creed their teachings are in line with it, are flourishing. I am a strong supporter of religious liberty and have friends who pay no attention to the Creed in their religious beliefs but to have someone in a position of leadership working with me in a church setting who questioned the Creed would be a real problem.

  5. #25
    p Piano Steve Freides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Ridgewood, NJ, USA
    Posts
    181
    Quote Originally Posted by jbird604 View Post
    The older I get, the more I believe that nearly all the judgments and barriers and categories and sins and such that we have been taught and preached to about are phony, that God is not bothered by the various differences among his human children in most areas of behavior other than the way we treat one another. If we love one another and treat one another fairly and without prejudice and judging, God is surely pleased.
    I love this.

    -S-

  6. #26
    p Piano Steve Freides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Ridgewood, NJ, USA
    Posts
    181
    Quote Originally Posted by Horseshoe_or View Post
    I am a retired bishop. I would find it impossible to have a minister of music who did not believe in the statements in the Creed. It is interesting that denominations that don't hold to the Creed are dying and that all the mega churches, while they don't recite the Creed their teachings are in line with it, are flourishing. I am a strong supporter of religious liberty and have friends who pay no attention to the Creed in their religious beliefs but to have someone in a position of leadership working with me in a church setting who questioned the Creed would be a real problem.
    @Horsehoe, here we return to my original question at the start of this thread. I asked because the sound of "minister" of anything isn't something I'm comfortable with in church as applied to me.

    What I've learned in the couple of dozen posts in this thread is that the title, "minister of music," means different things to different people, congregations, and denominations. I appreciate and respect your point of view and thank you for sharing it here. It's a pleasure to hear from someone with strongly held religious beliefs who is also a "strong supporter of religious liberty." The world would benefit from having more such people.

    -S-

  7. #27
    p Piano crapwonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Ellicott City, MD, USA
    Posts
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by Horseshoe_or View Post
    I am a retired bishop...
    For reference, what denomination?

  8. #28
    mf Mezzo-Forte Leisesturm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    45.51 N, -122.60 W
    Posts
    587
    "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one" -S'chn T'gai Spock. It should not be for the priest(s), minister(s) and/or other clergy to be burdened with the cognitive dissonance of allowing a non-believer or Agnostic in a Ministerial role in their Faith Community. No matter how discreet they are it would eventually seep out to the wider worshiping body that such is the case, and in the more progressive situations it probably would not lead to calls for dismissal but, still ... week in/week out ... accepting musical direction from someone openly questioning the core precepts and beliefs? Really? I'm sorry. I've watched this thread for weeks and since it hasn't died a death and gone away I am moved to venture an opinion. I for one feel obligated to adopt a personal and professional posture that is in complete support and accordance with the norms of my employment. I don't say Grace or Pray aloud at home, but I do at church. We rotate around the choristers that are comfortable leading a dismissal prayer at weekly rehearsal and I am always ready to take a turn. Anything else would be unthinkable. My comfort is secondary to theirs. They are paying me. There is a big difference between a chorister who is not comfortable leading group prayer (there may be several such) and a Minister of Music unable or unwilling to do so.

  9. #29
    p Piano Steve Freides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Ridgewood, NJ, USA
    Posts
    181
    @Leisturm, some people say every word of every service, serve as Scripture readers, show up at church functions they're under no obligation to attend, solicit donations for the church rummage sale, and the list goes on, while not being willing to say they subscribe to all the articles of the church's faith. If one acts, from the heart, as if everything the church is doing and trying to do is important and God's work, does it matter what name one assigns to his/her religious beliefs?

    You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but it sounds like you're responding to someone or something in particular, which isn't what I've taken away from this thread. My take-away is that the solution has to work for all the involved parties, and if a particular minister and minister of music and/or music director are comfortable with their respective beliefs and with working together, who is any of us to say they're wrong? The point, made above in the thread, is that not all ministers of music are, in fact, expected to act like clergy - there is sometimes, to use your phrase, a cognitive dissonance between what would be a reasonable understanding of the meaning of the words in the job title and the actual obligations, including beliefs, of the job to which that title refers.

    Live Long and Prosper.

    -S-

  10. #30
    pp Pianissimo crapmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    64
    Quote Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
    "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one" -S'chn T'gai Spock. It should not be for the priest(s), minister(s) and/or other clergy to be burdened with the cognitive dissonance of allowing a non-believer or Agnostic in a Ministerial role in their Faith Community. No matter how discreet they are it would eventually seep out to the wider worshiping body that such is the case, and in the more progressive situations it probably would not lead to calls for dismissal but, still ... week in/week out ... accepting musical direction from someone openly questioning the core precepts and beliefs? Really? I'm sorry. I've watched this thread for weeks and since it hasn't died a death and gone away I am moved to venture an opinion. I for one feel obligated to adopt a personal and professional posture that is in complete support and accordance with the norms of my employment. I don't say Grace or Pray aloud at home, but I do at church. We rotate around the choristers that are comfortable leading a dismissal prayer at weekly rehearsal and I am always ready to take a turn. Anything else would be unthinkable. My comfort is secondary to theirs. They are paying me. There is a big difference between a chorister who is not comfortable leading group prayer (there may be several such) and a Minister of Music unable or unwilling to do so.
    Nothing is ever going to "seep out" in my church unless someone asks me about it, which they never have in my many years as a church musician. I participate fully in all aspects of worship. I attended worship daily for years in the denomination I work in and I 100% respect their beliefs, including those that I don't share. And my work is almost entirely about *their* beliefs - not mine. My role is to find and offer music that enhances their experience. I love working in the church - I love the rhythms and celebrations of the church year. I love the way the church brings people together and creates community. I love being a part of creating the worship experience. My own beliefs have gradually changed over the years, but my work has not been compromised as a result.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Similar Threads

  1. "Key Note Lite" music rack light
    By dspiffy in forum Buy & Sell Hammond and Other Organs Archive
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-04-2011, 07:17 AM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-21-2011, 02:33 AM
  3. Add an "Improvisation" section in "Organ Music"
    By grion in forum Discussion Forum Suggestions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-10-2007, 02:54 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •