Self teaching organ improvisation

[diaphone32]

Someone told me once that they had heard once that 'you can never teach improvisation' (I think that was from some sort of specialist). I sort of agree with that, I think you can teach someone how to do it effectively and give them ideas, but other than that, I think the overall foundations of how to improvise should just come as naturally as the music....[8-|]

Jezza

[Mark Pratt]

I"ve been employing some the techniques discussed here since I started playing in church again. I discovered that the hymns were actually easier to play and more interesting when improvised. The pianist does it so why can't I? We're a non-liturgical church. I just got bored with holding whole notes in the left hand and pedal for measure after measure. I can't beleivethat I didn't even know about improvisation when I took organ lessons in high school but it just sort of came to me without the use of any books.

[grion]

[quote user="diaphone32"]Someone told me once that they had heard once that 'you can never teach improvisation' (I think that was from some sort of specialist). I sort of agree with that, I think you can teach someone how to do it effectively and give them ideas, but other than that, I think the overall foundations of how to improvise should just come as naturally as the music...[/quote]

I personally disagree with this statement.You are right: you cannot teach musicality, butby studying technique and famous composers pieces for years with good teachers you arefinally better than before in musicality.

Then it depends on what you want to achieve, anyway to be able to improvise as the masters do (with a lower degree of success maybe - as we do for litearture: we don't play as the real masters, but that one is the ideal result) we need to study and to follow a methodical approach.

I recently started studying improvisation with a teacher andin a certain sense all the teacher does is giving suggestions and then there is HARD work to do alone. Ok, but this is teaching/studying.

And then I quote Marcel Dupré fromthe introduction to his famous improvisation course (I translate freely from italian, because I don't have the book in my hand now, but just an italian version I did for myself):

"10 years of teaching improvisation and preparation for the improvisation tests at the Paris conservatory clearly showed me that improvisation is learnt with the same principles and the same methods used for learning the litearture."

In mypersonal opinion the fact that "organ improvisation is not teachable" arises from the following consideration: in general classicallytrained organists start studying improvisation years (often 10 or more) after they started with technique/literature. So they already have a good level of personal/musical development when they start imrpovising. Since many of the "tools" needed for improvising are the same needed for "literature" and "composition" there is not much more to teach (supposing that the organist did study some composition too as it usually happens). So improvisation is just using the tools in real time. So the teacher can just suggest ways for practicing... This is why they say "it is not possible to teach organ improvisation". But since some methods/schools exist it would be a fool thing not to give them a try. And if a beginner organist starts improvisation from thebeginning of his studies he will need the teacher more! (anyway this is my personal opinion).

Just have a look at jazz players: for them is normal to study improvisation. There are tons of books on jazz improvisation. And they do quite "normal things": transposition, scales, chords, chord progressions... But they dothis methodically! While the majority of organists (at least here in Italy) think that it is only possible "for the gifted ones".

[organduo]

If you are interested in learning to improvise in the style of Bach, check out my free 9 day Keyboard Prelude Improvisation Mini Course:
http://www.organduo.lt/improvisation-mini-course.html

[Mirabilis]

To improvise correctly one must have theory fully mastered so one can move from chord to another in the right way
and not just make a mess of things. Too many organists have mastered the keyboard in a way but have not had
the right grounding in theory and correct chord progressions and chord inversions, etc.

[myorgan]

To improvise correctly one must have theory fully mastered so one can move from chord to another in the right way
and not just make a mess of things. Too many organists have mastered the keyboard in a way but have not had
the right grounding in theory and correct chord progressions and chord inversions, etc.

However, isn't improvisation the fodder for new sounds and invention? I did it right--learned all the theory, chord progressions, inversions, and key relationships. However, I find my students are much more creative than I when it comes to composition. The rules tend to hold me back.

That said, I believe it's probably part of my personality and makeup that does not allow me to be as creative as I once was, not necessarily the rules of theory. But that plays a part.

If you've ever seen the movie August Rush, check out the scene where the kid is in Juilliard, and the Wizard (Robin Williams' character) argues with the professor about spoiling the kid. Both have valid points.

Michael

[matmilne]

yes you're right. I find that theory has more to do with arranging, orchestration and teaching. But very little to do with composition or improvisation. If you have no instinctive abilities at either, then theory is helpful, but if you can make music up on the fly, it's a severe hindrance.

[organduo]

yes you're right. I find that theory has more to do with arranging, orchestration and teaching. But very little to do with composition or improvisation. If you have no instinctive abilities at either, then theory is helpful, but if you can make music up on the fly, it's a severe hindrance.

Good observation. I think this is a valid point at least partially. To me, improvisation is just like composing on the moment of performance. It has to have a clear direction. If we play whatever comes to our mind without knowing what will come next, then our fingers lead the way and not the mind. In these things the mind has to go ahead of fingers. In other words, the mind has to dictate what we will play. This means that we have to comprehend the structure or the form of our improvisations, the tonal plan, the rhythmic, melodic, and harmonic figures, imitations, thematic development etc.

In a way, this is like a higher degree of composition, because when we compose - we can take time to think, we can correct our mistakes. While improvising, we don't have time to do all that. We have to think faster. And everything what we choose to play has to be reconciled with our fingers and feet. Therefore, slow repetitive practice is the key here, just like in organ repertoire playing.

In fact, I find that it's very beneficial to compose many similar pieces on paper before attempting to improvise one. And also, there is something missing nowadays with all the technology and photocopy machines that we don't have to copy the original model piece by hand like the masters did in the past. It gives incredible clarity of how the piece is put together and also it helps to internalize musical elements that we want to use in our improvisations later on.

What do you think?

[bass4art]

Also remember, one must have a good and well trained ear as well, I learned improvisation while working on my jazz skills, it is not as hard as most people think, just one needs to know their scales and arpeggios fairly well, to do it well, and be willing to stretch beyond sound like one is using scales all the time.