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Thread: Tweeters for organ audio

  1. #11
    mf Mezzo-Forte rjsilva's Avatar
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    Since everyone here seems to suggest that piezo isnít great, why not buy those supertweeters (they do look good) recommended by toodles and drop them in as a direct replacement and see the result. If thereís not enough improvement then you can take the next step and start looking at perhaps more direct positioning into the room. You may find that a simple replacement suffices.

  2. #12
    p Piano KOC62's Avatar
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    They are not very flat in frequency response, between 3KHZ and 20KHZ.

  3. #13

    We have a TO set up in our High School, Allen LL324SQ, and I am struck by the clarity of its HR200 Speakers (16 of them). We have them mounted in pseudo chambers. I think Allen made a good move by going with that Selenium driver and horn. I love the detailed sound.

    We also have a "road organ" An Allen GW319EX that travels, It has 12 HR200's but there we either use the "diffusers" Allen came up with, as they usually face audience directly. Or if we can, I reverse them and have them play off a reflective wall for nicely diffused but still detailed sound.

  4. #14
    Moderator jbird604's Avatar
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    I am intrigued by the Selenium horn and driver combination used in the HR-200. I have several of the horns, which I bought a few years back from Parts-Express I think, and for just a few dollars each. I have some screw-on horn drivers on hand too, so maybe I'll try out that combination and see how they work.

    Arie, you say what I've been thinking -- that digital organs don't really produce a vast amount of treble output, and indeed it is very difficult to project an adequate amount of very high frequencies into a voluminous space with commonly-available tweeters. I've often wondered what Allen was thinking when they chose those rather small dome tweeters, which might be right at home in a home stereo, to project organ sound into cavernous spaces seating hundreds if not thousands of people. A PA engineer would surely use some gigantic horns for that purpose in a space the size of some of the churches Allen has sold to.
    John
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    Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
    Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
    Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
    Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
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  5. #15
    Moderator myorgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbird604 View Post
    Highs are coming from the dome tweeters in the Allen cabinets (one HC and one PP per channel) plus a couple of piezo horn tweeters per channel.
    John,

    Forgive me for being so simple, but a couple of thoughts have occurred to me. With the Pezio and PP speakers on the same channel, would they end up "fighting" with each other being paired like that? Would it be either better to add a 2nd PP per channel and remove the Pezios, or vice versa?

    Just my KISS method.

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 4 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony)
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

  6. #16
    ff Fortissimo toodles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOC62 View Post
    They are not very flat in frequency response, between 3KHZ and 20KHZ.
    Those who are used to seeing "ruler flat" frequency responses are often not aware that many frequency response curves are averaged to show a smooth response or they allow a deviation such as +/- 3 dB. The ear does not seem to object to the actual response of drivers, so I don't know how important flat response is, but I suspect it isn't really very important.

    Broad or extreme peaks can be problematic, and I suggested that the XO (crossover)account for the broad peak in that Pyle Driver.

    Since human hearing is actually pretty poor from 10 kHz up (perhaps even lower), maybe John is looking for more presence in the 5k to 10k range or perhaps even lower? I think the Selenium horns are worth a try.

    As a reference, the triangle "rings" at about 6 kHz, and most think of that as a very high pitch.

  7. #17
    Moderator jbird604's Avatar
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    Michael,

    Part of my trouble is lack of funds and lack of space to work with. Right now I'm using the only four PP cabinets I own, and worse yet, the little chamber openings we have are stuffed to the max with the existing speakers. Not to mention that they only face inward toward the chancel. Because of the restricted space, a couple years ago I added some piezos down in the chancel floor, behind the sub cabinets, up against the wall. These are problematic, as there are certain spots in the choir where you get an earful.

    What I need is a complete re-thinking of the whole setup. I often wish I could re-model the chamber openings, as the chambers themselves are quite large. But our folks are quite proud of the aesthetics of the sanctuary, and everybody but me is fine with things as they are anyway!

    And in truth it probably sounds about as good as any four-channel organ, better than some. I'm just always trying to get "more" organ out of it!
    John
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    Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
    Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
    Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
    Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

  8. #18
    p Piano KOC62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbird604 View Post
    ... These are problematic, as there are certain spots in the choir where you get an earful...
    That is what I suspected is due to the "polar", or beaming response of a speaker driver. It needs to be factored into the final design of a speaker system. Angling the tweeter to change the direction of the "hot spot" (like a flashlight beam) may minimize the severity on a choir position - unless I'm not visualizing your situation correctly.

  9. #19
    Moderator jbird604's Avatar
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    Yes, no doubt these little piezo horns are quite directional and subject to beaming. Right now, they are down in the floor behind the subwoofers, up against the wall, so their sound has to reflect before it gets out to anyone's ears. But the narrow slot between the sub and the wall probably produces its own set of troubles, and the sound is a bit strident for those who sit near the speakers, even with it bouncing off the wall.

    If architecture and funds were not limiting me, I could certainly design a system to do what I want. But I can't do anything to alter the appearance of the chancel (and I'm not inclined to do so anyway, too much work!), so I've been experimenting with placing the tweeters so that they are invisible to the worshipers. Thus the tucking away behind the subwoofer cabinets in the floor.

    I could possibly put some in the baptistry area, which is actually a very lively little chamber of sorts, and sadly it gets little use for baptisms. It's behind and above the choir, and just might be a good spot to generate some extra highs and spaciousness in the sound without adding anything visual.

    The only other alternative is stuffing more speakers into the existing grilles, which are fairly well populated with the HCs, PPs, and the long piezo horns aimed at the ceiling.

    I do appreciate ALL the input and suggestions. Hope to have some improvements in the works before Advent starts, and that's just around the corner!
    John
    ----------
    Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
    Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
    Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
    Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

  10. #20
    mp Mezzo-Piano MarkS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbird604 View Post
    I could possibly put some in the baptistry area, which is actually a very lively little chamber of sorts, and sadly it gets little use for baptisms. It's behind and above the choir, and just might be a good spot to generate some extra highs and spaciousness in the sound without adding anything visual.
    How about a nice principal chorus in that baptistry?!

    Back on subject: Has anyone measured how much high frequency material is produced by the various digital organ systems? (The old brochures for Compton claimed that they went up to 10Khz--not bad for an electrostatic system.)

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