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Thread: Variations and Fills and Endings ... via MIDI?

  1. #1
    mp Mezzo-Piano Neumie's Avatar
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    Variations and Fills and Endings ... via MIDI?

    If I were to MIDI up my MIDI B3 console to my Technics GA1, I know I can play both manuals and the pedalboard of the GA1 remotely, but is there some way to trigger accompaniment controls such as "variation", "fill", and "ending" via MIDI? I've seen inexpensive programmable MIDI pad controllers, but I have no idea if home organ controls can be accessed via MIDI.

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    ff Fortissimo seamaster's Avatar
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    You could stick a BK7m atop your B3 and use a Roland FC7 to trigger that stuff.


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    mp Mezzo-Piano Neumie's Avatar
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    Very cool, Seamaster. I learn something new on this forum every day. I had no idea this existed.

    And of course, like most things organ, I've learned about it after it's been discontinued. Only used FC-7's still exist.

    But no matter. I considered the BK-7M briefly, but decided that what I really want is an Atelier. I'm just filling the accompaniment-void with a beat up old GA1 until the real thing comes along at a reasonable price. Might take another year, but I'm checking eBay and Craigslist daily.

    Now if Roland would update to a 2018 BK-7M ... and make it usable for playing on the fly, just like a home organ ... I'd be the first in line waving pound notes. For my level of aptitude and potential, there would be no reason to buy an Atelier in addition to my Hammond - if such a module existed.

    Strange ... Roland invented (or at least marketed) the BK-7M for pub accordionists and guitarists and such. But when I go on YouTube looking at BK-7M videos, 90% of what I see are modules sitting on top of older keyboards and organs.





    A new BK-7M with easily accessible accompaniment controls would be a very nice bone to throw to the home-organ crowd who would like to breath new life into their rigs. I actually wrote a letter to Roland a couple months ago, asking them to make an AT-900P in module form.

    Never received a reply. Here's the overall reaction I'm imagining at Roland HQ.


  4. #4
    mp Mezzo-Piano Momboc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neumie View Post
    If I were to MIDI up my MIDI B3 console to my Technics GA1, I know I can play both manuals and the pedalboard of the GA1 remotely, but is there some way to trigger accompaniment controls such as "variation", "fill", and "ending" via MIDI? I've seen inexpensive programmable MIDI pad controllers, but I have no idea if home organ controls can be accessed via MIDI.

    Intros, Fills and Endings - apparently yes, via CC 82 on the drum channel
    Variations - I can't find a MIDI message that triggers a change in the style variation.



    If you don't already have them, download the GA1 User Manual (UM) and the GA1 Reference Guide (RG)


    https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...1VZi-_LXlxaxr6

    https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...9AbTN0uvsONqr6

    You MAY want to go to Page 181 of the UM and Initialise the GA1's MIDI Settings

    Go to the top of Page 174 of the UM and set "Intro,Fill-In,Ending" to ON

    Go to Page 168 of the UM and check to see which Channel has been assigned to the Drums (it's probably Channel 10)

    Go to the Table on Page 24 of the RG. You can see under the Control Change Row that CC82 is recognised on the Drums Channel (if it is set to ON as per above) for Intro, Fill In & Ending.
    Note: that in the Drums column they don't specify what the basic channel for the drums is - which is why you'll need to check it.

    Go to the upper left of Page 27 of the RG and you can see that the GA1 will respond to various values of Control Change #82 (= 52 in hexadecimal) on the basic channel for the Drums part.

    CC82 on the Drums Channel (10?) with a value of 03 will trigger the Intro
    CC82 on the Drums Channel (10?) with a value of 07 will trigger the Count Intro
    CC82 on the Drums Channel (10?) with a value of 01 will trigger Fill 1
    CC82 on the Drums Channel (10?) with a value of 05 will trigger Fill 2
    CC82 on the Drums Channel (10?) with a value of 02 will trigger the Ending

    Now you will need a MIDI controller that can have its buttons assigned to send the above messages. Something like an Edirol PCR 800/500/300 (with a keyboard) or a Novation ZeroSLMkII (without a keyboard) would do the job

    You will also need a MIDI merger to combine the MIDI cables/data streams from the Hammond and the Controller into the GA1

    I couldn't find a message which triggers the Variation
    My modular, MIDI controlled, software driven virtual 'organ' thread is here: http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...l=1#post427320

  5. #5
    mp Mezzo-Piano Neumie's Avatar
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    Momboc ... unbelievable, this information you posted here! I'm not even going to ask how you came to know this ... but thank you!

    I do have the manual and, coincidentally, I just downloaded the reference guide from a Technics organ/keyboard website a few nights ago - but haven't looked at it yet.

    Just for the sake of experimenting with this before I buy a $200 MIDI controller ... if I set up the channel correctly, then I should be able to trigger these values, ie trigger the intro, fill, and ending on my GA1, with just pressing keys on any MIDI-connected keyboard, correct?

    I'm assuming that "CC82 on the Drums Channel with a value of 03, 07, 01, 05, and 02" ... those numbers are keyboard keys on a MIDI keyboard exactly the same as though they were programmable buttons on a controller, right? Sort of like when guys play or record drums on a keyboard ... they're sending "value 03, 07, etc" as drum hits from a keyboard to a sequencer?

    Do I understand that correctly?

  6. #6
    mp Mezzo-Piano Momboc's Avatar
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    No, it's not the same. You are confusing the General MIDI Drum/Percussion Map with Control Change Definitions.

    There are 128 Control Change message types. They are normally used to set various performance/sound parameters on the specified channel on the receiving device. The purpose of some of them have been defined by the MIDI Manufacturers Association. See the following link

    https://www.midi.org/specifications/...s-data-bytes-2

    For example; CC number 7 is used to set the volume of a sound on the specified channel on the receiver (with 128 volume levels available, i.e. values from zero to 127). So a MIDI Volume pedal will be set to send CC7 values. Another example is CC 64 which is used for sustain. If you send CC64, with a value of 64 or more, on a channel then the selected sound on that channel will be sustained until you send another CC64 with a value of 63 or less. So sustain pedals will be set to send CC64 values at or above 64 when pressed and values at or below 63 when released.

    If you look at the Table on Page 24 of the RM you can see that Technics have set up the GA1 to align with the MMA CC Definitions (as they should have)

    In the case of the GA1, Technics have grabbed CC82 (which is defined by the MMA as General Purpose Controller 7) and have purposed it to control the triggering/selection of Intro/Fills/Ending.

    So you will need to set up a several buttons on an assignable Controller, each set up to send a Control Change #82 message on the drum channel, with the specified discrete value to trigger the Intro or the Fill etc



    In the General MIDI spec, Channel 10 has been assigned for use by the Drums. The particular drum sound that is generated by normal note on and note off messages on CH10 is defined in the General MIDI Percussion Key Map.

    https://www.midi.org/specifications/...el-1-sound-set

    Technics have set up the GA1 to use the MMA Defined Drum Map. See the GA1's 'Keyboard Percussion' Drum Map on Page 18 of the RM

    If you can set one of the Hammond manual's transmit channel to align with the GA1's drum channel (probably CH10) then you should be able to trigger the drum sounds in the GA1.
    Last edited by Momboc; 10-13-2017 at 08:54 AM.
    My modular, MIDI controlled, software driven virtual 'organ' thread is here: http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...l=1#post427320

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    f Forte abacus's Avatar
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    Read this http://tweakheadz.com/how-to-get-sta...ording-studio/ before you get stuck into Midi or you will get into a total mess.

    Once you have read it you will understand what is in the Technics documents and how to use them.

    Have Fun

    Bill

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    mp Mezzo-Piano Neumie's Avatar
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    Thanks, Momboc and abacus.

    I've had occasion to MIDI up some keyboards in the distant past, but haven't held a MIDI cable in my hands in years. So my terminology is a little fuzzy.

    No matter. Everything you've posted here should get me going. I can't imagine this being at all difficult, just unfamiliar.

    Thanks again.

    -N

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    mp Mezzo-Piano Momboc's Avatar
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    Do you have a (laptop) PC and a USB to MIDI interface (such as the Roland UM-One Mk2)?

    If so then you will be able to test the GA1's response to MIDI messages using a free program called MIDI-OX - without having to invest in an assignable control surface.

    If you don't have a USB to MIDI interface, then I recommend you buy one - but don't get a dodgy cheap one
    My modular, MIDI controlled, software driven virtual 'organ' thread is here: http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...l=1#post427320

  10. #10
    mp Mezzo-Piano Neumie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momboc View Post
    Do you have a (laptop) PC and a USB to MIDI interface (such as the Roland UM-One Mk2)? If so then you will be able to test the GA1's response to MIDI messages using a free program called MIDI-OX - without having to invest in an assignable control surface.
    No, Momboc. Two computers in the house ... both Macs.

    I'm already googling Mac alternatives to MIDI-OX though. I get the concept of the software and it could help.

    On a different note, a few months ago I was admiring your rig on your signature thread. (I keep thinking given the direction of organs, that's the inevitable outcome of where things are going.) But now I can't view your image anymore. Tells me to update my account to view images.

    I don't know if that's your glitch or mine.

    I assume you can click on your signature link and readily see the pictures of your rig?

    All I get is an error message at every picture, with no idea how to fix it.

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