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Thread: Johannus, Viscount, or VPO? Advice?

  1. #31
    f Forte rjsilva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j reimer View Post
    It is not at all difficult to provide those variables using samples, and no high technology is involved...
    Thanks for the thoughts. I donít want to reply too much for the sake of the OP, but Iíll reply a bit.

    Iíd agree that sample playback is easy peasy, thatís a non-spectacular part of a VPO. I have mentioned it elsewhere, but you may not be aware that I started my own VPO project out of frustrations with a few things about Hauptwerk. I have some UI ideas which I think would be far better, and Iíd only write native code vs using 3rd party UI libraries. A while back I spent a few days sampling the Walker at church to use for testing. The project has actually been put on hold for now because Iíve been researching other methods besides sample playback. I may even scrap my project and instead update Aeolus with my UI ideas and remove 3rd party library dependencies and other improvements.

    My goal in what I said which you replied to was simply to think about what is heard in that recording (did you listen?). Itís safe to say that what weíre hearing in the recording is not two different length short samples creating the impression of a non-looping sample. There is, at a minimum, one extremely long sample which does not start at the same spot on repeating plays, or perhaps a filter on all note samples to simulate jitter/space movement/pitch movement which does not repeat. I donít want to give the actual details about what I heard which lead me to lean toward a physical modelling element, so Iím trying my best to convey without saying.
    [/QUOTE]

  2. #32
    ppp Pianississmo meb's Avatar
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    the big decision

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsilva View Post
    Unless you buy a premade VPO solution or hire someone you will spend time fiddling and adjusting
    Precisely. I only want a premade VPO solution, IF- IF- IF that's what I buy. And fiddling is still unavoidable, as trying out the free version of Hauptwerk made quite clear. (Although it's not that big a deal.)
    Quote Originally Posted by rjsilva View Post
    . . .A touchscreen has no tactile feedback and thatís a big loss. . . .Thatís not an ideal design and you can be mostly assured they arenít the future of organ consoles. Or least I hope not
    That's just the rub (no pun intended).
    Quote Originally Posted by rjsilva View Post
    Itís worth repeating that you donít need to use a touchscreen if your chosen organ console has full midi capability. Youíd just need to find a sampleset that more or less matches the stop count on the console.
    That's probably the right road for me.
    To repeat what I questioned above, I can't play any of these organs unless one happens to arrive when and where I can visit. I'm toying with just buying one anyway. Can't decide whether that's a good idea or not, but I'm anxious to HAVE it. Since I don't have the bank account for a Walker (joke), what should a person do?

  3. #33
    Administrator Admin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meb View Post
    To repeat what I questioned above, I can't play any of these organs unless one happens to arrive when and where I can visit. I'm toying with just buying one anyway. Can't decide whether that's a good idea or not, but I'm anxious to HAVE it. Since I don't have the bank account for a Walker (joke), what should a person do?
    Find a good used organ locally.

  4. #34
    Moderator jbird604's Avatar
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    I have several decent reconditioned digital organs in my shop. How far are you from Arkansas?
    John
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    Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
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  5. #35
    pp Pianissimo Josh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post
    There is no question in my mind that the Physis system is based on physical modeling, not on sampling, and as far I'm concerned Viscount is the only organ builder that can make this claim.
    This is correct. Viscount was able to secure the international patents, including the United States, on creating an organ pipe of any kind through physical modeling. Due to increased awareness of this technology in recent years, marketing vocabulary of competing manufacturers have blurred the lines on this by stating things like...We 'modeled' this organ after such and such, or 'our samples are modeled after'. P.S.- Sorry I've been gone for a while. Viscount Organs US just had a record sales summer, and I've been incredibly busy!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by janvds View Post
    Hi Don,

    Interesting comments. In my neck of the woods we have recent instruments from both Johannus and Viscount in the field. The difference in pricing doesn't seem to be quite as significant as it is in the USA. However, the main tradeoff is, the entry Viscount instruments are all vinyl clad, while aside from the Studio model, the entry level Johannus organs are wood veneer. Viscount does offer a veneer option for their entry level instruments, however the difference is several thousand dollars.

    My technician also tells me the build quality of Johannus is somewhat better, particularly in the circuit boards. The other major benefit around here is Johannus offers a 10 year parts warranty, although I cannot speak to Viscount's warranty at this point.
    It is true that in the entry level Viscount's, the wood veneer is more. But comparatively to it's respective Johannus model, is still usually less than the competitors.

    Regarding boards, Viscount uses soldered through boards in many of the components. I don't know how this could be perceived as lesser quality than a stamped board.
    Joshua Dove
    Managing Director
    Viscount North America
    www.viscount-organs.com

    President/CEO
    Whitesel Church Organs
    www.whiteselorgans.com

  6. #36
    f Forte rjsilva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    This is correct. Viscount was able to secure the international patents, including the United States, on creating an organ pipe of any kind through physical modeling.
    Iím definitely a fan of Viscountís Physis and if I had the means I would most certainly buy one.

    However, what you said doesnít sound correct. Only a specific implementation can be patented, not a general ideaóĎphysical modellingí of pipe organs as an idea canít be patented but how an entity implements physical modelling can be patented (assuming no Ďprior artí). If another organ manufacturer came up with their own physical modelling which is technically implemented in a different enough way from Viscountís then there would be no patent infringement. This could certainly include partial physical modelling all the way to full physical modelling. If Viscount is relying on a very general patent(s) regarding real-time physical modelling it would never hold up against an official challenge. Although, granted, itís not as if many organ manufacturers have the financial resources to justify a legal battle.

  7. #37
    p Piano organman95's Avatar
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    At this point, I'm not sure anyone would really care so much about infringement from the technical point. This isn't the 70s/80s anymore. We aren't necessarily battling over the type of technology anymore. Just the end result in sound.
    Allen MOS 1105 (1982)
    Allen ADC 5000 (1985) w/ MDS Expander II (drawer unit)
    Henry Reinich Pipe 2m/29ranks (1908)

  8. #38
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by organman95 View Post
    At this point, I'm not sure anyone would really care so much about infringement from the technical point. This isn't the 70s/80s anymore. We aren't necessarily battling over the type of technology anymore. Just the end result in sound.
    Excuse my ignorance, but is modeling the action of organ pipes in software any different that modeling a complete Hammond B3 or a Leslie 122 in a few ICs? Isn't it the action (method) to simulate pipes that is patented, not the end result?
    -- I'm Lamar - Rodgers W5000C - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3
    -- 1899 Kimball pump organ (forum thread) - Still haven't found the headphone jack...
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  9. #39
    Administrator Admin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silken Path View Post
    Excuse my ignorance, but is modeling the action of organ pipes in software any different that modeling a complete Hammond B3 or a Leslie 122 in a few ICs? Isn't it the action (method) to simulate pipes that is patented, not the end result?
    I would imagine that patents pertain to the implementation of the model, and, certainly, even if the model itself could be patented, the modeling of pipes is way different from modeling tone wheels.

  10. #40
    p Piano organman95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post
    I would imagine that patents pertain to the implementation of the model, and, certainly, even if the model itself could be patented, the modeling of pipes is way different from modeling tone wheels.
    Aren't tone wheels just a set of oscillators?
    Allen MOS 1105 (1982)
    Allen ADC 5000 (1985) w/ MDS Expander II (drawer unit)
    Henry Reinich Pipe 2m/29ranks (1908)

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