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Thread: Conn 650 - Not Balanced..

  1. #1
    ff Fortissimo Suhndog's Avatar
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    Conn 650 - Not Balanced..

    I've mentioned this I think in the past, but even after adjusting the internal Tibia/Complex pots, my LM is still too loud. It overpowers the UM.

    It makes no difference even if I use the pistons to lower the Tibia or lower the Complex LM sounds.

    The Tibia's on the LM are the same volume as the UM. I want the LM to be lower in volume than the UM. This is the way my other organs are.
    Now, my preference is that the Accompaniment on any organ should be just that - and not at a 'Solo' volume'...

    I have no idea how to accomplish lowering the volume of the entire LM.

    Any ideas?

    Thank you....


    marc
    Lowrey MX2 (NT400x)
    Thomas Floridian Classic -- aka Wersi Rondo Classic
    Kimball K800 'Fascination' Theater Organ
    Conn 650 - Type 1 with Conn Pipes - Model #145
    Baldwin Cinema 2 (214-DR)
    Wersi Spectra DX 700 CD - LiveStyle, Memory Tower
    Wersi Beta DX400 TS - (with AMS)
    Wersi Delta DX 500 - (with AMS)
    Wersi Pegasus Keyboard!
    MOOG Eterwave Standard Theremin
    Roland GAIA SH-01 Virtual Analog Synthesizer
    Williams Allegro 2 Digital Piano

  2. #2
    ppp Pianississmo edkennedy's Avatar
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    If your 650 is like my 645, it can't be changed.
    The tibias are wired like a pipe organ's unified rank where the exact same pipes are available on both the upper and lower manual. Since both manuals use the exact same rank of pipes, the volume on both will be the same.
    In the Conn, the tibia stops for both manuals go through the exact same keyer circuits which select the tones before going to the amp. If it makes you feel any better, theater pipe organ players have the same problem.
    So, at least with the Tibias, you are getting the faults of a unified theater organ along with the sound of one.
    Ed Kennedy
    Current Organ - Conn 645 Theater

  3. #3
    p Piano jepsound's Avatar
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    What Ed says is sadly true. My 651 is designed in the same manner. Never understood the concept of tossing individual expression pedals for each keyboard in favor of separate expression for flute and complex tones.


    Jim
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Keeping (too many) old organs alive.
    Allen ADC 2110-T, Rodgers Trio 321B
    Conn 651, 713
    Hammond M-3 w/Leslie 120
    Hammond Solovox
    Mass-Rowe model 96 Carillon

  4. #4
    ff Fortissimo Suhndog's Avatar
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    Sigh... well that stinks.

    It's always annoyed me .. however, if I use a fuller registration, that tends to reduce the overall problem, but at times I want a softer registration, and the problem occurs.

    I'm less inclined to play it .... I was hoping that somehow the LM Tibia's might've had a separate feed into the board where it's mixed with the complex sounds.. That way, some sort of attenuation could be applied, but if the keyers on the LM are tied to the UM ones as they control the Tibia generation, then it's hopeless.. [if I stated that correctly..]

    I wish I could replace it with a nice Rodgers Trio ... oh, well..

    Thanks, guys for the info!
    Lowrey MX2 (NT400x)
    Thomas Floridian Classic -- aka Wersi Rondo Classic
    Kimball K800 'Fascination' Theater Organ
    Conn 650 - Type 1 with Conn Pipes - Model #145
    Baldwin Cinema 2 (214-DR)
    Wersi Spectra DX 700 CD - LiveStyle, Memory Tower
    Wersi Beta DX400 TS - (with AMS)
    Wersi Delta DX 500 - (with AMS)
    Wersi Pegasus Keyboard!
    MOOG Eterwave Standard Theremin
    Roland GAIA SH-01 Virtual Analog Synthesizer
    Williams Allegro 2 Digital Piano

  5. #5
    ppp Pianississmo edkennedy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jepsound View Post
    What Ed says is sadly true. My 651 is designed in the same manner. Never understood the concept of tossing individual expression pedals for each keyboard in favor of separate expression for flute and complex tones.


    Jim
    You are seeing the difference between classic and theater organs

    In a classic pipe organ, or classic style electronic, each voice or stop belongs to a single keyboard. This lets you have an expression pedal for each keyboard. This also means that the only way to play a swell stop on the great is to couple the swell to the great manual.
    In a theater organ, the ranks are not tied to a specific manual or pitch. (This is also true of small unified church organs). This means you cannot have an expression pedal for each manual.

    On the Conn, they are trying to get the most out of the analog design without having a room full of electronics.

    The Conn is effectively a 2 rank unified organ for the manuals with a separate pedal division.
    As I said earlier, on the tibias, both manuals at all the tibia pitches are combined and sent to a single set of keyer circuits, one for each note. This allowed Conn to give the controlled attack and decay, including sustain, properties which only the tibias have on their organs.
    The rest of the voices are wired differently with separate, but much simpler, filters for the voices. On those voices, the upper and lower manuals have separate filters allowing them to have the 16' full and 8' full tabs on the upper creating different volumes for each manual on those stops.
    Ed Kennedy
    Current Organ - Conn 645 Theater

  6. #6
    ff Fortissimo Suhndog's Avatar
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    Thank you for the details!

    It's just so annoying having the Tibia's on the LM drowning out sounds on the UM. If I knew it was this way before I got the organ, I would have got a different one..

    So sad...
    Lowrey MX2 (NT400x)
    Thomas Floridian Classic -- aka Wersi Rondo Classic
    Kimball K800 'Fascination' Theater Organ
    Conn 650 - Type 1 with Conn Pipes - Model #145
    Baldwin Cinema 2 (214-DR)
    Wersi Spectra DX 700 CD - LiveStyle, Memory Tower
    Wersi Beta DX400 TS - (with AMS)
    Wersi Delta DX 500 - (with AMS)
    Wersi Pegasus Keyboard!
    MOOG Eterwave Standard Theremin
    Roland GAIA SH-01 Virtual Analog Synthesizer
    Williams Allegro 2 Digital Piano

  7. #7
    p Piano jepsound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edkennedy View Post
    This means you cannot have an expression pedal for each manual.
    Interesting concept. My experience with actual Theater Pipe organs is limited to just 2 installations but each one had an expression pedal for each manual. Not saying you are wrong, just mentioning what I have observed.

    Jim
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Keeping (too many) old organs alive.
    Allen ADC 2110-T, Rodgers Trio 321B
    Conn 651, 713
    Hammond M-3 w/Leslie 120
    Hammond Solovox
    Mass-Rowe model 96 Carillon

  8. #8
    ppp Pianississmo edkennedy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jepsound View Post
    Interesting concept. My experience with actual Theater Pipe organs is limited to just 2 installations but each one had an expression pedal for each manual. Not saying you are wrong, just mentioning what I have observed.

    Jim
    If it was big enough to have 2 tibia ranks. The one I remember had 2 pedals, one for the left chamber, one for the right. The Conn is equivalent to a very small theater organ. The main ranks are on multiple manuals and at multiple pitches.
    Ed Kennedy
    Current Organ - Conn 645 Theater

  9. #9
    p Piano jepsound's Avatar
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    OK, thanks. I understand the principle involved here. The expression for each chamber would apply only to any and all ranks within that chamber. That said, I was looking at the specification for the 4/73 Wurlitzer at the Nethercutt Collection in Sylmar, California. This instruiment has 5 chambers - Main, Solo, String, Etherial and Percussion. All chambers are under expression except the percussion chamber. Now, this is a very large organ - the largest on the west coast, yet it has tibia ranks in each of the 4 chambers that are under expression.

    I guess the answer is that the expression scheme to be used doesn't necessarily apply to any particular size instrument but is a result of the organ builder and customer desires/design.

    Next time I get the chance to play a pipe TO, I will make sure to learn how its expression system is configured. I see where that can make a big difference on performance.

    Thanks for enlightening us on this subject !

    Jim
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Keeping (too many) old organs alive.
    Allen ADC 2110-T, Rodgers Trio 321B
    Conn 651, 713
    Hammond M-3 w/Leslie 120
    Hammond Solovox
    Mass-Rowe model 96 Carillon

  10. #10
    ff Fortissimo Suhndog's Avatar
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    I have been a bit too harsh.. I just have to be in the mood to work around this limitation.

    I do like my 650. I was just getting pretty frustrated with it.

    It's another good reason to have a few organs to choose from! heh
    Lowrey MX2 (NT400x)
    Thomas Floridian Classic -- aka Wersi Rondo Classic
    Kimball K800 'Fascination' Theater Organ
    Conn 650 - Type 1 with Conn Pipes - Model #145
    Baldwin Cinema 2 (214-DR)
    Wersi Spectra DX 700 CD - LiveStyle, Memory Tower
    Wersi Beta DX400 TS - (with AMS)
    Wersi Delta DX 500 - (with AMS)
    Wersi Pegasus Keyboard!
    MOOG Eterwave Standard Theremin
    Roland GAIA SH-01 Virtual Analog Synthesizer
    Williams Allegro 2 Digital Piano

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