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Thread: Motor Control - Reed Relay

  1. #21
    pp Pianissimo dannicdem's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Want to close the loop on this issue.

    The driver had normal measurements I so bypassed the capacitor in series with the horn driver it worked perfectly! The replacement is now installed and this bad boy is LOUD and working perfectly!

    Many thanks to the experts and their contributions!

    Best!

    Dan D.
    Leslie 31H Type 2 x2, 45 x2, 251, 351, 720, 710 x3, 700, 2101, 925, 860, 700, 330, 120 x2, 104, 25, 125 x2
    Hammond Concorde 2312M, Hammond Elegante 304100, Hammond A-100, Hammond C2
    Nord Electro 4D & 5D, Kawai MP6, Ensoniq ESQ &Mirage, Wurlitzer Electric Piano 200
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  2. #22
    ppp Pianississmo tone's Avatar
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    Hey all,
    Happy to find this thread. New at this forum here..
    I also have a 130 and have some motor circuit trouble.

    My Low speeds works great, but high speed doesn't operate. Just a sort of stuck hum sound coming from motors.

    I took out the motor circuit and motor assembly as well. I ran some basic AC voltage tests during performance to compare between the performance of low speed circuit and high speed circuit, mainly around the relays.

    I am focusing around the relays because the relay for the high speed seems to have busted open at some point. (I just got his thing for 50$ with condition unknown). On the side of the relay there is a half broken fragment of wire that can be grabbed with pliers and freely pulled away. One end is still attached, but clearly a break has occurred in the middle area of relay.

    Voltage/ohms tests.. sure enough, the obvious, during operation of the low circuit (performing well) the impedance between what i believe to be the two conductive ends of the relay have about a zero impedance. The bad relay, during operation (attempted anyways) there is a resistance there above 1Megaohm.

    During Low operation, D17 (is this whats referred to as a "triad"?) has all three pins measuring at something like 77 VAC.
    During High operation, D12's middle pin (T2) measures the same 77 VAC but the outer pins both measure 33 VAC.

    The way i am inititating modes is by jumping the 11pin connector's Pin 5 and Pin 6 together at all times, and then connecting that to Pin 7 for high and switching to pin 8 for low. I believe this is an exact replication of the external control unit, minus the LED section of the control unit circuit.

    The problem with the high is NOW not the common issue where the lower motor doesn't fully retract. The lower motor did have that issue, i can tell, because i had to pull it down and readjust the bolts to get it up better. So, my theory is that perhaps the lower motor being in constant contact USED TO be the problem, but when someone kept trying to switch on the high speed without luck it burned out the reed relay?? Is this possible?

    However, i tried jumping the busted reed relay and that did nothing. I didn't take measurements because frankly it was really tight quarters and i was worried about shorting something with the jumpers and testers i have on hand.

    Could it be that both the reed relay and the D12 ("triad"?) are busted? They both got burned out?

    Really looking forward to hearing this thing in high speed. It sounds great in low. I have two different external ampeg amps that i'm trying out using directly connected to the lower speaker. Not going to bother with the upper speaker. One is a B-15N, and one is a Jet-12. Bass amp and guitar amp. Really fun stuff.

    I do have my leslie powered by a Variac right now, but i had already tried everything out with direct power. I am interested in using the variac to adjust speed. In low speed the results are perfect, anywhere between 80 and 115. Interestingly, there is a very hard cutoff point where the leslie shuts off. It's like 116. The leslie simply shuts off. Protection circuit maybe?

    Again, for those concerned, the variac was not used at all during all of my initial trials getting things running. I only hooked up the variac just recently, so the variac did not cause the issues i have.

    There are seemingly very mixed opinions on variac use those, all from reputable experienced folks!

  3. #23
    ff Fortissimo Sweet Pete's Avatar
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    Your issue is most likely mechanical and having those motors 'set' correctly is important.
    Maybe you overcompensated a little which is totally normal for a first timer.
    I take my motor stacks out to a jig where I can mount,power up and adjust them.
    Making these adjustments in tight quarters is fine if you know what the issue is.
    Worn out spring kits,wobbling armatures and other things can mess up your speed switching.
    I take some 400 grit sandpaper to 'round' the rubber o-ring if worn flat; on the large pulley between motors.
    This is the main reason to get the fast motor some 'external' AC! Once that o-ring is determined good....
    I carefully inspect with a magnifier(old eyes) to make sure the height of the pulley on the motor shaft will also match the 'spring' of the slow motor!
    Fine tuning the lock down nut on the adjustment shaft is easy once everything matches.

    There are diagrams in the Leslie manual for the motor stack or stacks.And written service instructions.
    A100/251 A102/222 B2/147 BCV/122 M102/145 M111/145 M3/142 L101/760 L133/760 T212/770 ,147/145/770/HL822
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  4. #24
    ppp Pianississmo tone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet Pete View Post
    Your issue is most likely mechanical and having those motors 'set' correctly is important.
    Maybe you overcompensated a little which is totally normal for a first timer.
    I take my motor stacks out to a jig where I can mount,power up and adjust them.
    Making these adjustments in tight quarters is fine if you know what the issue is.
    Worn out spring kits,wobbling armatures and other things can mess up your speed switching.
    I take some 400 grit sandpaper to 'round' the rubber o-ring if worn flat; on the large pulley between motors.
    This is the main reason to get the fast motor some 'external' AC! Once that o-ring is determined good....
    I carefully inspect with a magnifier(old eyes) to make sure the height of the pulley on the motor shaft will also match the 'spring' of the slow motor!
    Fine tuning the lock down nut on the adjustment shaft is easy once everything matches.

    There are diagrams in the Leslie manual for the motor stack or stacks.And written service instructions.
    Thank you for your help, although i'm genuinely confused how i could have overcompensated since the issue already existed which is why i opened things up. What exactly are you referring to when saying i may have over compensated? I haven't done anything to the high speed motor at all, other than detach the lower motor's shaft from the rubber o ring so that the high speed motor could spin freely and then i tested things and still the high speed motor doesn't spin. From my understanding, the high speed motor should work on its own without the o ring ever coming into contact with the low speed shaft.

    I also would be surprised if there was nothing wrong with my high speed electronics.. the reed relay is not creating contact, but instead a large resistance, and the triad has different looking voltages than the low speed triad.

  5. #25
    ff Fortissimo Sweet Pete's Avatar
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    Sorry if I misread/understood your post. In the past I've changed triacs in Leslie 760's to get speed switching issues resolved.
    Also had motor overheating because the half wave AC was still working 'fast' while in chorale.....simple half hour unsoldering and reinstalling new ones.
    A100/251 A102/222 B2/147 BCV/122 M102/145 M111/145 M3/142 L101/760 L133/760 T212/770 ,147/145/770/HL822
    Nord C2D, Nord Stage II EX88,Yamaha MOX6,Roland JX-8P w/PG800,Roland VR-760,Behringer X32,Yorkville PS1's
    Yorkville powered/unpowered speakers/Soundcraft LX7II-24,A&H MixWiz 16/3,3-Furman PQ-3's,SWR Pro200,Carvin 410HF

  6. #26
    ppp Pianississmo tone's Avatar
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    Hey everyone,
    Just wanted to update that i got it working. I received the triac and reed relay and installed them both on the high speed circuit and it works well.
    I had to do something funny with the pinout of the reed relay, as it seems there is some kind of mis information in the part numbers perhaps. If you look up the part number 137454 on several parts suppliers, they seem to be the correct reed relay but upon receiving, the legs are not in the same physical configuration as the old reed relays that are installed. I believe it is the same no matter where i order the part number, so it must be some design change that took place and isn't the same on the 130 design somehow. Either way, i figured out what was what and installed it with some jumper wires. Very simple.

    I haven't hooked it all back up to the rotor yet but the fast speed on motor appears healthy. It wasn't even turning on at all before and now it's spinning fast and freely. I wish there wasn't a hum but it's not a loud hum.

    I do have one question though.. I have just picked up my M3 organ, which works great. I would like to completely bypass the amplifier stage of the Leslie and simply hard wire a speaker connection cable from the output of the M3 amp all the way to the speaker itself on the leslie. I'm ignoring the crossover of the leslie 130 and simply hooking up the main speaker as if it were the speaker of the M3 itself. Simple connection. My only concern is.. what should i do regarding the amplifier electronics on the leslie 130 that are now going to sit idle but still be turned on? It's not tube, so is it really of any concern? Or should i figure out how to turn off the amp section of 130 at all times...?

  7. #27
    fff Fortississimo David Anderson's Avatar
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    The old reed relays I've seen were in yellow tubes with flexible lead wires coming out that were soldered into the PCB. I don't think any reed relays are made like that anymore, so you will likely have to adapt any relay you buy to the PCB layout.
    I'm David. 'Dave' is someone else's name.

  8. #28
    ff Fortissimo muckelroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tone View Post

    I do have one question though.. I have just picked up my M3 organ, which works great. I would like to completely bypass the amplifier stage of the Leslie and simply hard wire a speaker connection cable from the output of the M3 amp all the way to the speaker itself on the leslie. I'm ignoring the crossover of the leslie 130 and simply hooking up the main speaker as if it were the speaker of the M3 itself. Simple connection. My only concern is.. what should i do regarding the amplifier electronics on the leslie 130 that are now going to sit idle but still be turned on? It's not tube, so is it really of any concern? Or should i figure out how to turn off the amp section of 130 at all times...?
    The crossover is there for a reason. That 3" tweeter can't handle the lower frequencies and may easily be damaged if you drive it in this way. You should keep the crossover in place, unless you are not using the 3" tweeter. It is safe to connect only the woofer directly to the signal without a crossover. It can handle the high frequencies without damage, you just may not hear them as well.

    I can't really comment on what you should do with the 130 power supply and amp board. Bypassing an amp without figuring out the cause of the hum could be dangerous later on, and at minimum would decrease the value (however small) of the Leslie had it been properly serviced. (The term "hack job" comes to mind. Nobody likes a hack job.)

    What I can tell you is that I don't think that the Leslie 130 has a load switch, and it's unclear if you are using any type of kit to hook it up. (are you?) Regardless of whether you decide to use, or not use the 130 amplifier, if you decide to disconnect the M3 main speaker, the M3 amp needs to have an 8 ohm load across the voice coil terminals at all times, meaning if you disconnect the M3 speaker voice coil (green / black), an 8 ohm 10 watt resistor should be connected across those wires, and mounted in a secure place with adequate ventilation. If your M3 has a field coil speaker, leave the field coil wires connected to it.
    Last edited by muckelroy; 01-26-2018 at 05:17 PM.

  9. #29
    ppp Pianississmo tone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muckelroy View Post
    The crossover is there for a reason. That 3" tweeter can't handle the lower frequencies and may easily be damaged if you drive it in this way. You should keep the crossover in place, unless you are not using the 3" tweeter. It is safe to connect only the woofer directly to the signal without a crossover. It can handle the high frequencies without damage, you just may not hear them as well.

    I can't really comment on what you should do with the 130 power supply and amp board. Bypassing an amp without figuring out the cause of the hum could be dangerous later on, and at minimum would decrease the value (however small) of the Leslie had it been properly serviced. (The term "hack job" comes to mind. Nobody likes a hack job.)

    What I can tell you is that I don't think that the Leslie 130 has a load switch, and it's unclear if you are using any type of kit to hook it up. (are you?) Regardless of whether you decide to use, or not use the 130 amplifier, if you decide to disconnect the M3 main speaker, the M3 amp needs to have an 8 ohm load across the voice coil terminals at all times, meaning if you disconnect the M3 speaker voice coil (green / black), an 8 ohm 10 watt resistor should be connected across those wires, and mounted in a secure place with adequate ventilation. If your M3 has a field coil speaker, leave the field coil wires connected to it.
    Thanks for the pointers !
    Sorry for my complicated explanation prior!
    I'm actually not leaving the M3 amp unconnected. That would be bad! I'm connecting the M3 amp directly to the woofer speaker of the leslie. Thus i'm leaving the M3 speaker sitting unused of course.
    So, the only thing i'm concerned about in terms of safety/electronics, is leaving the LESLIE audio amp section powered up. But that is all solid state, so i'm asking you all if it's something to be concerned about.

    Yes i know about the high frequencies getting lost in the sauce but that's ok for now.

    EDIT: forgot to also mention.. the hum is not audio, it is simply the motor humming a little
    Last edited by tone; 01-26-2018 at 06:09 PM. Reason: adding

  10. #30
    ff Fortissimo muckelroy's Avatar
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    Most solid state amplifiers will be fine if nothing is attached to their outputs. They only begin to over-conduct and overheat if the outputs are shorted (so a close-to-zero load). Grain of salt is, I am not intimately familiar with the 130 amp, and I don't know if there are quirks with it that are exceptions to that rule.

    I would think you could disconnect the 130 amp board through its 5 pin molex connector. It also gets signal input, but I assume you're sending that to the woofer already.

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