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Thread: Woofers, reconed vs. stock condition: Differences in sound & power handling?

  1. #31
    fff Fortississimo David Anderson's Avatar
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    Even the stock woofers in Leslies have an extra-thick gasket layer (specified from the speaker factory) to prevent cone contact with the upper drum bearing mounting bracket. This is often overlooked when using other drivers not specifically set up for this application.

    I like the JBL speakers from that era and have several myself. It verges on being unfair to try to stack a C15L up against a D140F, and an E140 will be 2dB more sensitive than the D/K version, at the cost of being very heavy, a 22 lb. speaker!

    In fact, I bought a rough 147 cabinet that had been used for years of gigging, and it had a JBL E140 in it. I had to replace the woofer shelf with a plywood shelf from Valhalla Woodworking because the E140's weight, in combination with gigging, had seriously weakened the particle-board shelf. Without back screws to hold it in place, the shelf would visibly sag.
    I'm David. 'Dave' is someone else's name.

  2. #32
    pp Pianissimo andyhof's Avatar
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    Oh, it's definitely unfair to stack up the C15L to a d140f... but's it's been my everyday/living room leslie and i've grown accustomed to it. Then when i rescued the 147RV with C15L from a Connecticut basement i was amazed by the difference. Dissapointed more like it.

    David thanks for reminding me of the extra weight of the E series ferrite magnet. And this is going into a 1971 147RV with the particle board. Oh boy.

    That's another reason i like the decorator series... no particle board... the shelf is too long. All hardwood in everyone i've come across.

  3. #33
    ff Fortissimo nonreverb's Avatar
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    Just a thought.....There's always the remote possibility that the cab may not resonate as well as others too. I've had countless 41" Leslie boxes and they don't all sound the same in the bass department The Leslie cabinet is a well designed cab but not perfect and variations can and do present themselves. Some say the build changes in 1970 when they went to particle board decks impacted the sound.
    Having said that, installing a more efficient speaker with a different resonance point will probably be an improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by andyhof View Post
    Oh, it's definitely unfair to stack up the C15L to a d140f... but's it's been my everyday/living room leslie and i've grown accustomed to it. Then when i rescued the 147RV with C15L from a Connecticut basement i was amazed by the difference. Dissapointed more like it.

    David thanks for reminding me of the extra weight of the E series ferrite magnet. And this is going into a 1971 147RV with the particle board. Oh boy.

    That's another reason i like the decorator series... no particle board... the shelf is too long. All hardwood in everyone i've come across.
    Hammond B3 (55), B3 (70), B3 (72), B2 (51) conversion, A100 (61) chop, A100 (62), A105 (75), Northern BC (39) empty.
    Pile of Leslies of various flavours, Minimoog, ARP Odyssey, MaxiKorg, Hohner D6, Rhodes 54, Rhodes 73, Wurlitzer A200, Wurlitzer A203W

  4. #34
    fff Fortississimo David Anderson's Avatar
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    As someone who recones speakers, I would say that there can be variation in speakers, too. They were not all built as consistently as people tend to imagine who haven't done as many autopsies as I have.
    I'm David. 'Dave' is someone else's name.

  5. #35
    pp Pianissimo andyhof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Anderson View Post
    As someone who recones speakers, I would say that there can be variation in speakers, too. They were not all built as consistently as people tend to imagine who haven't done as many autopsies as I have.
    for sure... i think.

    mine was made the week of July 5, 1971
    So... maybe the factory was hungover and still burping up hot dogs when they made my lacky C15L !!!!

  6. #36
    ff Fortissimo nonreverb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Anderson View Post
    As someone who recones speakers, I would say that there can be variation in speakers, too. They were not all built as consistently as people tend to imagine who haven't done as many autopsies as I have.
    Indeed...further, age and environment can impact their sound. I can't recall how many times I've warned vintage amp owners with original speakers that their beloved Jensen P12R is not going to handle the same wattage it did when new......the same caveat can be applied to old Leslie speakers.
    Last edited by nonreverb; 11-09-2017 at 09:36 PM.
    Hammond B3 (55), B3 (70), B3 (72), B2 (51) conversion, A100 (61) chop, A100 (62), A105 (75), Northern BC (39) empty.
    Pile of Leslies of various flavours, Minimoog, ARP Odyssey, MaxiKorg, Hohner D6, Rhodes 54, Rhodes 73, Wurlitzer A200, Wurlitzer A203W

  7. #37
    fff Fortississimo David Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonreverb View Post
    Indeed...further, age and environment can impact their sound. I can't recall how many times I've warned vintage amp owners with original speakers that their beloved Jensen P12R is not going to handle the same wattage it did when new......the same caveat can be applied to old Leslie speakers.
    I think a P15LL's original voice coil will probably still handle the full power of a Leslie tube amp, but the cone surrounds are falling apart. The other failure I see in them is the voice coil wire breaking where it exits the coil. Simple metal fatigue. At Jensen, specifically, I think quality control began slipping towards the end of Chicago Jensen production. That factory closed around 1971, and all production was shifted to the Rola facility in Ohio.
    I'm David. 'Dave' is someone else's name.

  8. #38
    ff Fortissimo Sweet Pete's Avatar
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    Richard and others warned me that my 'new' 251/P15LL was fragile; and with regular use(matted all 8s) sure enough it fried. Perfect match to the gig A100 though!
    David Anderson sees the varying quality first hand,the rest of us deal with it.....Tibor did a great job for me,David Lee trained him well.
    Very happy with the rebuild. The 251 box has hardwood baffles and really kicks!
    My spare P15LL is about the same as my Utahs.....no great differences there.
    So how does my '71 147 stack up with a C15L and particle board baffles? Just fine thanks. Breaks up a little sooner.
    The '64 147 #83*** has easily the most bass. And even more strange? It has the first of the C15L speakers in it. Perfect mate for the B2.

    A combination of boxes and components for sure. There is quite a bit of variation.

    The JBL M30 that was in a 760 sure sounds great in the shortie (45) I just 'frankened'. A rare JBL but a great sounding speaker! More D130 ish presumably.
    Nice hardwood baffle shortie with a 760 under the hood.
    After the '770' I threw together last year I'm building a pair of '330' types,using the 760 x-overs though.
    Back in the early 70's we braced my 145 for a JBL2482 and K145.Powered it with a Sunn 2000S.
    Every time I've paired up Leslies one of the two sounds better.Mind you the lesser one always sounded good.....
    A100/147 B2/147 A102/222 M102/145 M111/145 L133/770 1937 Northern Hammond(third one built) BCV/122 NordStageEX88 Yamaha MOX6,Neo Ventilator
    Radial J type DI's ,Mogami Starquad wiring ,Yorkville Powered Speakers,Allen+HeathMixWiz3,Soundcracft LXII7/24,SWR Pro220 bass amp,Fender ProReverb

  9. #39
    pp Pianissimo andyhof's Avatar
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    ok, so now i'm confused.

    After recently swapping woofers in my 147RV... i decided to have a look at the woofer in my 222. I love the sound of this cabinet and was delighted to see a Utah in there. After looking closely, i noticed the connections from the dividing network into the woofer look odd. The (+) green wire comes from the small pin exiting the dividing network... and the (-) black wire comes from the larger pin on the connector exiting the dividing network. I did a polarity test on the Utah woofer with an AA battery and voltmeter. Got a +DC voltage reading when testing the existing connections. so i believe its hooked up properly and seems factory to me. But then i noticed a red dot next to the speaker terminal that has the (-) black wire connection. I'm perplexed. Can you guys have a look at the picture and tell me what you think?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by andyhof; 11-14-2017 at 04:12 PM.

  10. #40
    fff Fortississimo David Anderson's Avatar
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    This is the normal woofer wiring, and here's the reason. Don't kill the messenger.

    The Leslie crossover is a second order crossover, and second order crossovers cause a ~180 degree phase shift between the horn and woofer. The solution to the phase shift problem in HiFi speakers is to flip the phase of one of the drivers. Leslie flipped the woofer.

    The reason I said don't kill the messenger is because now someone will come along an argue that given the shifting phase relationship in the crossover region due to the moving sound source, driver phase makes no difference in a Leslie. I will not venture an opinion on that.
    I'm David. 'Dave' is someone else's name.

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