RODGERS PDI Speaker Installation

[Lutheranorganist]

I have had a few confusing/conflicting suggestions. I could use some clarification from those out there that are are familiar with Rodgers PDI organs.

We are trying to install a new organ in our sanctuary. We've had people suggest that we just install all the channels together - ie: SW/GT/CHR in the front in ONE chamber and the Subs in the rear in separate chambers.

Then we've had someone tell us to install the One SW/GT/CHR channel on the left, and one SW/GT/CHR channel on the Right. Basically, a stereo effect. Again, subs in the rear.

Thirdly - we've had it suggested to install The 2 SW Channels together in the left chamber, and the 2 GT and the 2 CHR channels on the right side chamber.

I'm just waiting for the in-flight - headset suggestion in each pew next!

Anyone have any experience and/or educated opinions on maximizing the best sound for a first gen. PDI Rodgers?


Many thanks ahead of time!

[arie v]

Hi,

To give indication of what can or should be done, it would be helpful to know the size of the openings of the chamber, how far the chambers are apart, and how far to the rear of the room, or to the back chambers? Maybe some pictures would be helpful.

AV

[michaelhoddy]

I would say as a general principle separating the subs from the rest of the organ by any significant distance is a bad idea. I know there's the whole home theater "bass is omnidirectional so it doesn't matter where I put the subs" mindset, but that really only works in very small rooms or within the same directional plane because sound at any frequency still has a time domain component to it. It's incredibly disorienting when the bass is arriving at a different time and from a different direction than anything else.

As Arie mentioned, some more info on the chambers would be helpful, but really, there are several workable options depending on the distance between the chambers and the orientation of the chambers related to everything else (choir, congregation, console etc).

[jbird604]

Rodgers generally recommends for PDI organs to put the two speakers of a given pair several feet apart but not too far apart. Some rule of thumb like "half the distance to the nearest listener but not more than eight feet" -- it's been a while since I saw it in print, but it's something like that. Normally, you'd put the left and right facing in generally the same direction and out through the same opening. I'd just set them a few feet apart so the "stereo" effect can function to some extent. If they are separated too far, odd effects can occur since celestes and mixtures have the individual ranks in separate channels and the sound of the two speakers needs to interact in the air.

That being said, I once installed a PDI in a small church with all three left speakers at the left of the chancel and all three right speakers on the right side. The chancel was about 25 feet wide, I think, which is too far apart by the rule, but it actually sounded great because we turned the speakers upward to bounce the sound off the high wooden ceiling and it sounded like the organ was spread out all across the chancel!

The advice to put the swell pair on one side and the great and choir pairs on the other may in fact be a good plan, similar to the layout of some pipe organs and consistent with the function of the two expression pedals. However, we've installed a good many of them with the swell on one side, the choir on the other side, and the great on both sides. We would use four speakers for the great, placing a left-right pair in each chamber. This produces the side to side separation of the swell and choir to allow for back and forth effects when needed and gives the great a truly "great" sound because it has doubled speakers and is spread across the room.

I agree that the subs should be up front with the rest. We often put one sub in each chamber where there is a divided arrangement such as you describe. This goes against the rule of thumb mentioned above, but it does help to spread the bass around in the room and avoids some standing wave issues that arise if both subs are in the same chamber.

If you just really want something in the rear chambers and don't want to add a separate amp and speaker set for a true antiphonal, I suppose you could put either the swell or the choir division back there and let it be a sort of antiphonal division. This would NOT be a good idea though if the rear chambers are a great distance from the console, say more than 50 feet. I know this goes against traditional organ arrangements, but it might be fun to play and would put some sound in the rear, if it's really needed back there. (Ducking and running for cover.)

Keep us posted on how this turns out.

[Lutheranorganist]

I don't have the best pictures here at home with me, but I did find something to give a general idea of the space we are talking about.

As you will see in the pictures, we seat about 225 people. The building is a nice "A" frame design with a very high ceiling covered in wood. No padding under the ......ugh, carpet and no pads on the pews. So we are pretty good acoustically.

The front chancel area is currently not set up with speakers. However, we are planning on installing them there. As they should have been 40 years ago! Currently they are stored in the chambers in the rear of the building at the balcony on each side. That's not a BAD thing for the congregation. However..........the organist can't hear as the sound projects forward towards the chancel, and the choir comes downstairs DEAF after an hour of being abused by sitting on top of the speakers.

THAT SAID......... I am requesting they do it right this time and put them up front. That way no one is in the direct line of fire.

We don't have any openings up front as of yet until we know for sure how many speakers we will end up with in the end - and where we should cut the openings. It was interesting that it was mentioned to point the speakers to the top and let the sound bounce off the ceiling as we had discussed that and have been in favor of doing so. We have done that in the back (current set up) with some of our more irritating speakers to our current AOB with 8000 speakers. It does create a great effect!

If you look at the front in the photo, you will see two narrow banners on the right and left. We considered using those angled walls to use send the sound crossing over each side of the congregation AND pointing the channels UP. It's interesting to hear the subs should be up front too. We never thought that might be an issue and had planned on leaving those in the balcony chambers.

The balcony - where the consle also sits - is approx. 40-50' from the altar/chancel area.

Take your best stabs at this! We're game!

[Jan Girardot]

Over the years, most of the guidance from the church organ companies has said that the organ tones should be heard in the following order:
First by the organist, next by the choir and last by the congregation. I have never seen a successful installation where that order was not followed.

"Subs in the back"? Terrible idea!

. . . Jan
the OrganGrinder

[jbird604]

As Jan said, the organist needs to be near the speakers, and it would not be a good idea to have them 40 or 50 feet away. You'll still have the problem of the organist not hearing the organ, thus people at the front of the church will now complain that it's too loud. And the choir will not be able to sing effectively with the organ if the sound is coming from that far away.

I didn't know at the time of my previous post that your console was in a rear balcony or I wouldn't have made the suggestions that I did. The good news is that the Rodgers will sound about a thousand times better than the AOB so it will not be nearly as irritating for the choir to be in the "line of fire" of the speakers. Still, a way needs to be devised to put the console itself in the direct field of the speakers so the organist knows exactly what the organ sounds like and how loud it is.

You just may have to do some creative remodeling or else suffer with a crippled installation again. I still suggest the arrangement I suggested above -- choir on one side, swell on the other, great on both sides, subs in the same place as the rest. But I do urge you to avoid having the speakers at the opposite end of the church from the console. When I was an organ salesman and installer back in the 80's our installation manual talked about that situation and referred to it as "the worst possible arrangement."