Could anyone please help me out with a Thomas Trianon?

[andyg]

Great, Swell are classical/church organ terms. Theatre organs name manuals differently. The lowest is the Accompaniment, the next one up is the Great and if you go higher the third is usually the Solo. Thomas used Solo for its larger 3-manual model, the Palace III, but that was a bit more theatre organ oriented. The Trianon was a little different, in that the 3rd manual was used just for percussion sounds, so they called it Orchestral (and that's often the 4th manual on a theatre organ!)

From what you've written so far, I think your learning curve for organ playing and repairing may well be a steep one, but if you want to play this Thomas, then stick with it. We can help!

Realistically, it must be said that however much time and money you spend on the Trianon, it will never be worth any money. Even when fully working, old organs like this are often given away. I say this because we often have posts from people who have bought something, want to do it up and make a quick profit, rather than playing the organ. They won't succeed, period! However, from your posts, I'm sure that you actually want to use it!

According to the Mother List, the later Trianons in the 628x series are IC divider based.

[ddd_spada]

Yessir I wanna play it! My parents found it for (the equivalent of) 40 dollars or so. I'm well conscious that selling it will not be profitable.

"the later Trianons in the 628x series are IC divider based."
What does this mean as far as how I might clean it, replace the ecaps or check if anything's unplugged inside?

[Jan Girardot]

spada, that means you need to be very careful when doing anything inside, especially around the tone generators where the I. C.'s (Integrated Circuits) are located. They are rather sensitive to static shocks, so wear a grounded clip lead attached to your watch band.

I suggest you do a gentle cleaning and a thorough inspection of any and all connectors. Keep us posted on your progress.

. . . . Jan
the OrganGrinder

[ddd_spada]

The organ is open now, and it's a heck of a lot busier inside than I ever thought!

The pedal keyboard was connected properly. I played for a while before unplugging it and opening it, and the feature "Chord memory", as I found, plays a major chord normally, but it changes the chord to minor when a pedal is pressed down; the pedals were properly connected as this major-to minor change worked perfectly, but maybe the ecap(s?) for the pedal voices is not working.

The "top" lid is open, letting me see several hundred tiny colorful cables that run from below the back part of each switch/tab/stop to tiny metal pegs in peach-colored boards (some dark green boards, about 10 by 4 inches, don't let me see too well). Each metal peg is inserted into each hole of one of several tiny white boxes. I *think* they're called claviers, they look similar to parallel port cables for computers.

The only things that look suspicious are:

One of the claviers has nothing attached to it at all, neither the metal pegs nor cables from the stops or their green boards.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/359...astrianon1.jpg

A couple of others have a peg or two with nothing connected to them. I can't get a good look at that with my laptop camera.

There's two spots where it looks like there should be a clavier but there isn't one.

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7...astrianon2.jpg

There's also a box around 4x4x1 inches either made of or covered with hard, textured plastic (I can't tell, it's stapled shut). It has a 7x7 formation of round holes on the top.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6...astrianon3.jpg

While most everything is very dusty, I can't see any rust anywhere.

I opened up the back of the organ as well. There's a black box about 4 x 6 x 12 inches, which the power cable goes into, four speakers, the volume pedal and a reverb device.

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/1...astrianon6.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3...astrianon5.jpg

Another board is acting as the "back lid" of the cavity where all the circuitry is. I assume I'll have access to the ecaps once I remove it, but two of the screws are, quite literally, rusted tight.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6...astrianon7.jpg

As you can see I can't access the ecaps.
I had two of my family members help me (one holding the organ so it wouldn't move, one helping me try to twist the screwdriver) but they won't budge one bit, and the board they're holding is thick enough so we can't bend it to see what's behind it.

...My progress is halted just by this so far. We'll either get an automatic drill-like screwdriver or we'll saw off the board around those two screws.

As soon as any more progress is made, I'll post it here (especially about the ecaps). Thanks!!

[indianajo]

Okay, the corrosion we are talking about is oxide on brass, tin, and copper connectors. This is not rust and is not visible. You try to remove it by unplugging the connectors and replugging them again, with the power off. As Jan said. More stubborn patches of it, you have to use a pink rubber eraser and wash off with alcohol, but you can't get an eraser into most of these connectors.
Your missing headers (white connector blocks with cables attached) are possibly due to the fact this is not a top of the line model. The top of the line model will have 61 keys per keyboard, not 41 or 36. I believe claviers is spanish for keyboard, correct me if I am wrong. Estudio El Espanol in la escuela media por ochos anos pero no se las pallabras tecnicas. Las palabras tecnicas no estan en el dictionario barrato de la escuela media.
I suggest buying the service manual for this from Jan if available and others if not, before buying any capacitors. Some parts may have been removed to keep problems from hurting other functions, and you will need to look at the cabling diagram to check. If the "orchestra" top keyboard (clavier) has no cables running to it, that could be the case.
After you check the cabling, you should check the power supply test points in the service manual with a DVM or VOM (meter). I get my Craftsman DVM at Sears or K-mart for $30. A set of clip leads (alligator clips) from R**** S**** is useful for connecting the minus probe to chassis, as I suggested for one hand measurement. I don't like R**** S**** meters, tools, soldering irons, or anything else they sell, they are the cheapest of the cheap. But the alligator clip lead sets have been okay.
The best tool for removing stuck screws in wood is a hammer type impact tool. Cal-Van used to sell them, but I think they have been put out of business by the generic ones from Taiwan(okay) or China (suspiciously cheap). You set this to unscrew, select the tip that fits the screw, then hit it with a large hammer while holding firmly to keep from twisting backwards. This is only for the wood screw areas of the organ, not to be used on plastic parts. see this part at amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Grade-1962...=impact+driver probably for sale at a hardware or auto supply near you.
Those blue cylinders with a pinched end in picture 4 are electrolytic caps. Look and see if they have a plus on one end, and the "xx mf, yy WVDC +-zz%" marking.
The box with the holes is probably a part particularly sensitive to radio noise or something.
The adventure begins!

[ddd_spada]

Clavier means nothing in Spanish, but it means harpsichord in French.

"You try to remove it by unplugging the connectors and replugging them again, with the power off."
I can't reach them with my fingers, at least not the ones coming out from the malfunctioning stops. It's ok if we remove the green boards that are on the way and reconnect them later, right?


"Those blue cylinders with a pinched end in picture 4 are electrolytic caps."

You mean these tiny bean-sized things? I expected them to be quite larger when you said they're "aluminum cans full of water", haha. Are the yellow cylinders ecaps as well? What about the AA battery-sized blue ones? Some of them have all that info, others not. (This calls for some precise solderwork, I bet.)

The adventure begins! Yes it does! Thanks again.

[indianajo]

Electrolytic capacitors can be as small as a rice grain. They will always be marked in whole mf except possibly for the 0.47 mf ones, but they will almost always have a plus on one end or a minus pointing to one lead. capacitors with a decimal point ahead of the number are plastic film capacitors and do not deteriorate over time (made after 1964) if from a reputable manufacturer. The e-caps that can blow up something when dried up are pretty big, located near the power transformer and rectifiers, usually. Sometimes e-caps are only marked "xx-yy" for xx mf and yy WVDC. If the zz tolerance is not shown as a third number, it is usually +80-20%.
The only yellow e-caps I saw were attached to the speakers, and those probably say "5 mf NP" or something similar. Those are non-polar electrolytic capacitors and are the ones that don't have a plus on one end or a minus pointing to one lead. I would save those until last, they might make the sound lack treble or bass, but won't blow up anything or stop it from working.
Did you get the big screws out? another way if you don't have an impact driver but do have a reversible variable speed electric drill, is to use a left hand drill bit about 3/4 the size of the screw head. You set the drill to turn left hand, start drilling the head, then rock a little bit off straight and the drill catches in the hole and turns the screw out. LH drill bits are not sold in hardware stores, usually only at the industrial supply. But they are usually only about $4 for the 11/64" size.
When I have to remove e-caps from a PCB (printed circuit board) I don't usually remove the leads from the circuit board. That can cause the printing to come off the
board. I cut the leads flush off the old cap, bend them over to make a hook, bend the leads on the new one to make a hook, and hook the new cap in place by bending the hooks closed before soldering. Much easier on PCB's.
I'm going to the country until Sunday where there is no phone or internet. Have fun.

[ddd_spada]

We got the screws out alright. The board they were holding has some circuitry attached to it, so I decided not to mess with it for now.

By wiggling the connectors in and out for the ones I couldn't quite reach, and unplugging then plugging again the ones I could (there's still quite a few I can't reach at all), the volume on the viola, violina and both vox humana stops is back to normal. Some of the blue Orch stops are working now too!! The leftmost six are working now, but the rightmost five are suffering from very low volume, (like the viola, violina and vox humana before). I tried unplugging and plugging them again when I noticed this, but it fixed nothing else.

There's a black stop called "Hidden Voices" to the right of all of those, with an arrow pointing to the left, which I assume activates different sounds on the blue stops (Some of them have two names on the switch itself. For example, the Honky Tonk and Harpsichord stops have 'Strings I' and 'Strings II', respectively, in smaller letters). So far, the Hidden Voices switch, when activated, completely mutes out all the blue stops that are working now.

The foot pedals still don't work, though I'm completely sure the keyboard is properly connected: the speakers will let out an odd percussive sound (not musical or pleasing at all) whenever a pedal is pressed.

We'll probably get around to cleaning everything inside tomorrow. Is it ok to use a vacuum from a couple of inches away, or using it with a non-moving brush attachment?

"The only yellow e-caps I saw were attached to the speakers"

Most of them are yellow, but they don't look too yellow with so much dust, haha. I'm trying to see and take note of all the different kinds I can recognize. Some say 2.2 mF. Many say 0.22. Some others have a temperature --usually 85 ºC-- marked on them. Most don't have a third number or a plus or minus sign, but they have arrows pointing to one end.

"Have fun." Will do. Thanks again!

[andyg]

The Hidden Voices tab changes the percussion sounds on the top manual into sustained sounds, so Harpsichord becomes Strings.

[paulj0557]

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but I had a Thomas Californian 287 theatre organ. Since the boards are compatible with the Trianon 6820 and 6824 ( the later Trianon's, do you have the early 70's model? If so what I'm about to say might not be an issue with your organ, but if it is a 6820 or 6824 then there is a very good chance!)

All of the theater type tabs on the 287t are linked to the PC board mounted switches via a little plastic molded linkage that looks like a little 1/2" long Y. One end clips to a theater tab ( all of your blue tabs that aren't working etc.) and the other end engages the pc board mounted switch. All of this might sound complicated, but it is a very simple repair and if you open the lid of the organ and look around chances are you will see a bunch of these little broken Y clips laying around.

How to fix? Since these clips are somewhat unique it is difficult to fabricate something to fix it. So what I recommend is to find a couple known good clips. There were 3 clips on my 287t that were detached, but still solid enough to use for a 'template' to mold new ones. It's important that these clips aren't broken or the open end is not deformed to where it can't clip in.

There is a good chance you can simply reinforce many of the split open clips with dabs of super glue, or find a resource for more NOS clips (ANYONE??), but if not then you can order a plastic resin injection molding kit and make your own by using a few known good clips. If you only have a couple then mold two and combine those two with the two originals and make a mold for four clips. Once you have all new clips the theater tabs that are not working should operate fine.

NOTE: You can manually push the pc board switches in and out by hand using small pliers. The only place you risk shock is around the organs ON/OFF...be careful. You won't get shocked by any of the other 'voicing/accompaniment/effects' tabs pc board switches.

Good luck

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