Reply With QuoteI was just giving you a hard time, mrdc. I'm glad you notified us of the Johannus and its price and capabilities. Do you work for them?
circa1949,
Digging into this a little deeper, we find that Johannus will build any drawknob console with "movable stops" and will also build a custom console to suit any church's wants and needs AND that 42 channel organ would still be under 100K.
Of course, the comparison you make with the Taylor and Boody is not apples with apples.
We were talking strictly about digitals. Sorry if I confused you.
mrdc
I was just giving you a hard time, mrdc. I'm glad you notified us of the Johannus and its price and capabilities. Do you work for them?
No, but we do have a connection.
mrdc
There's other less tangible issues like build quality too. I know nothing of Johannus' reputation here, but I do have some personal experience with other brands with what happens down the road when corners are cut, and if a 4-manual, 42-channel instrument is truly being offered at $75k, corners are being cut somewhere. Other makers aren't more expensive because they're greedy or stupid, they're more expensive because in this economy of scale, it actually costs more to do the little things right.
It's an ongoing headache, an annoyance, and expensive to rectify speakers and amplifiers that fail and consoles that fall apart. In this day and age of throwaway technology, sadly, few congregations and committees look beyond the initial investment. I sincerely hope they get lucky.
michaelhoddy,
You are making a lot of assumptions here, corners are not being cut and yes, a few other makers are being greedy and also stupid. Consoles don't need to last 50 years or longer, after 25 years of use the organ has already depreciated to near zero and its technology is also very much outdated, who cares whether the console will last another 25 years.
A church needing another new organ and who also must watch the budget are wise to investigate what all the organ manufaturers have to offer.
It is truly stupid for any organ committee to decide for or against any organ manufaturer based on past historical performances, judge only by what is done today.
mrdc
Respectfully, in regards to my assumptions, I did work in the electronic organ industry for more than a decade, and I currently work in the pro audio industry, which is similarly low volume, high diversification, and which shares several major manufacturing practices and processes with electronic organ industry, so I might just know a couple things.
There's no magic bullet to dramatically cutting product costs, unless you outsource, borrow standardized componentry from other industries thus eliminating low-volume manufacturing and R&D, cut quality or manufacturing costs, eliminate middleman markup by eliminating or reducing your dealer network, or increase the number of units sold. Johannus may be doing one or more of these. Johannus may be doing none of these. I have absolutely no basis to know. But they are doing something, because there is no zero-sum in business economics.
Also, if other organ manufacturers are being ridiculously greedy, please show me where the money is going. I know absolutely no one in this industry who is getting rich.
Last edited by michaelhoddy; 07-13-2012 at 05:30 PM.
I don't have all the answers either, we are just relating to what we saw and heard in the last two weeks.
Johannus seemed to be the only one at the AGO convention that had any worthwhile products to show. We saw at least 6 instruments of theirs, from 2m to a very large 4m,
whereas a few others had just one 2m on display that appeared to be the smallest model they made. We also noticed that several manufacturers were not even at this AGO event. Have they already disappeared ?
You mentioned "eliminate middleman markup by eliminating or reducing your dealer network".
My suggestion is: Eliminate the middleman altogether and let the factory sell to the dealer directly. This will lower the price substantially and opens the door for more dealerships due to increased sales. I don't know how each company is set up, but it makes sense to me.
In any event, discussions like these don't do much to turn the industry around as more and more churches are going the praiseband route anyway and won't need organs anymore or they can't find an organist who will play for free and then dump the organ.
I have to agree with Arie V. that the organ industry is on a downslide and before too long there will be a major fallout from the current manufactures.
The big question might be, Who will be left ?
mrdc
Economy of scale is relative and I'm sure that Johannus manufactures many more organs per year than Walker. That should provide them with a cost advantage since they can spread those costs over their entire line of products. That's not to assume that the relative material quality is equivalent between Johannus and Walker, but all else being equal, Johannus should be able to sell a similar quality instrument to Walker at a lower price.
What is interesting to me is that Walker is cost competitive with Allen and Rodgers. Again, because Walker is a custom shop, I would expect Allen and Rodgers to have the advantage of a lower cost. I recall hearing a while back that the margin for Allen dealers was between 30 to 40%. If you subtract that margin from the Rodgers and Allen quotes, you're getting down toward the Johannus price point and an explanation as to how Walker, who sells direct, can compete against these two larger competitors.
-Admin
Excellent point Admin, I was sort of counting the "cost" of the dealer network in what I called marketing expenses in my prior post, though I should have spelled that out. Of course that cost "goes" to the dealer, but is still part of the premium making those products more expensive. Walker is the one coming out ahead these days...think of how much more networked people are these days than even 10 years ago. They let their products sell themselves...if you read those in their entirety, you notice that they had the Walker recommended to them by a colleague. It sort of reminds me of what is happening in consumer electronics...instead of the old model of "walk into a Best Buy and have a teenager try to talk you into buying something" people are basing their purchases on what their friends purchase, information that is shared online...and/or online review sites. It's a huge paradigm shift and it looks like its making its way into the rather arcane world of digital church organs.
While prices have come up...this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmxiB4TSQiM
would seem to indicate that the cheapest Allen 3 manual drawknob organ, this one, I think, sets you back 56K. A little higher than I would have expected. I knew from someone who got an estimate on the smallest AGO console protege organ about 5 years ago that it was about 14K, and that might have included a couple external speakers. A few years later, drawknobs, and a 3rd manual...56K seems quite a leap. Maybe a custom finish added to the cost. OTOH, for what it is, is that an outrageous price? Again, economies of scale come into play. As Arie's figures point out, no organ company is making a lot of organs compared to 15 or even 5 years ago. They have to charge whatever the market will bear. But if the aforementioned 3 manual Walker is going to be the install I think it's going to be (many channels, their consoles always look top notch) it makes it seem like even more of a bargain at 135K.
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