Wurli vs Baldwin

[Bobmann]

I just came accross a couple organs for sale; I am still looking to add a theater style organ to my collection. What is the consensus of opinion on the following:

Baldwin Cinema II, not sure which version. It comes with a Leslie 45 but no cable to allow it to be tried out. It looks good in the picture, and predictably it is advertised as perfect with everything functioning.

Wurlitzer 950. Also "in perfect shape", no external speaker.

The asking prices for either one of these is $800.

My initial thought is the Baldwin is worth this price, as even if the organ was so bad it could not be repaired, the Leslie is worth that.
I think the Wurli is over-priced.

Price aside, which organ would you choose, and why?

I appreciate the opinions.

Bob

[andyg]

They're both well over-priced as organs, but the leslie 45 is worth almost that. I'm not sure how you'd hang a 45 on a Cinema II, as the organ is multichannel, but I don't think there's a specific rotary channel to feed the tibias through.

I personally find the 950 a bit brittle, those tibias are too sine-wave for me, and the strings are a bit mushy for my taste. The Baldwin has more of a theatre tone to my ears.

But for the possible issues with the vinyl keying rods, I'd look for a Conn. As analogue theatre organs go, their sound is warmer.

[james]

I would go with Baldwin since I think the Cinema II was one of the best sounding theater organs they built. Check them out on youTube.

[Snowbandit]

I wouldn't pay $800.00 for either of them. As with any old organ, there's likely to be issues that come up. Parts for the Baldwin will be much more difficult to locate and more expensive than for the Wurlitzer.

[OrgansR4Me]

I just parted a 950 because like Andy I found it to be on the shrill side. My first interest in it was that it had the genuine Leslie. Andy later mentioned in a thread that it may have been a budget decision to drop a premade unit into the Wurly's rather than continue to build the SpectraTones. That really got me to thinking and given the faults in the tibia circuit (2 2/3 was always on) and no pedal tones I decided I needed the added room for the addition of a Theatrum and a Kimball Camelot. My 4573 is much smoother, has the Penta slider system, and someday I hope to trace the loss of volume in the orbit. I bought that unit (same physical layout as a 950) for $75 at a thrift.

I'm a diehard baldwin fan and like the video Coe does the Baldwin. But outside the horseshoe cabinet I wouldn't trade that Cinema against my Wurly or Conns. Especially at $100's. I have a CT2 spinet closely voiced to the cinemas that I paid $65. So whatever you are looking for place the greatest value on the Leslie Cabinet.

[james]

OrgansR4Me,

I remember you mentioned that the Baldwin Orga Sonic 58R series I have is the best that Baldwin had made tone wise in the Orga Sonic line. I wonder why the others had so much buzz to them? I like Baldwin for church music only, and by church music I don't mean the Evangelical type of worship. Those type of churches flocked to Hammond in abundance when I was growing up.

It is ironic that the Presbyterian Church I played for had a Hammond. It was so out of place for our type of worship, and a Baldwin would have been so much better. What is even more ironic is the Baldwin dealer was less than a mile from the church.

[SubBase]

Between the Cinema I, II, and III, correct me if I'm wrong, but the II is the only one with the Leslie (type) rotating baffle, while the I and III had electronic tremulant/vibrato circuitry?
This is what I gather from reading specs and listening on YT.
Casey

[Bobmann]

Thank you all for the opinions.
What I would really like to do is go play each one, but they are several hours' drive away...in opposite directions.

I did make initial contact, and it appears that I am the only one who has responded that was interested in the organs...the person with the Leslie has gotten offers for the 45 alone. He was not sure if the Leslie had ever been connected to the organ.

I would not pay the asking price for either one. If they get to a point that they need to dispose of them, I may be able to pick them up for very little.

If anyone else has any opinions, please share.

Regards,
Bob

[paulj0557]

THIS GOES WITH POST THAT FOLLOWS IT , READ NEXT POST THEN REFER TO THIS POST...crazy computers!


wurlitzer 4500R.jpg
The $25 fully operational Wurlitzer 4500R bench inc. ( note no louvers on top). Although Wurlitzer phased out the incredibley superior Spectratone for the application of an in-organ rotary system for tremulent, I have no idea if the awesome 4500 line was affected. definately not any of the standard 4500/4502/4520 or 4300's, but possibly some of the later variations like the 4500R,4300D, 4300R??? can someone comment?
So what became of this incredible $25 deal? Well, I considered getting it, but natuarally I had to somehgow talk myself out of getting it because I already have a 4500, but my 4500 needs a new transformer. So the way I justified not getting the 4500R was to convince myself the missing louvers made it not as good, those louvers really do give the organist the best seat in the house, which is something most fully self contained organs don't do. Another reason to rule out getting it was becuae of the complete incompatability of the chassis between the 4500 and 4500R. The 4500R used smaller octal plugs and sockets and who knows what else. So Morelocks is going to completely rebuild my 4500's amp chassis for a grand total of $150. Yes, it's more than spending $25 on the 4500R, but not that much more. Organs aren't something one should dismantle because it needs a few parts, but it's happening every single day and it sucks. I did manage to save an amp chassis from a Wurlitzer 44 that a person on Craigslist in another town too distant for me to travel to snet me. Unfortunately they put the 44's chassis in a huge box with no packing material, then they put all of the tubes in a padded envelope and by the time I got it all of the tubes but 3 6SL7's were turned into pulverized glass dust! Interesting to note though, it's unharmed chassis is full of it's original bumblebee capacitors. My 4410 actually used a slew of orange Mallory drops that look just like the Sprague organge caps, but slightly more red and shinier. I'm going to do a chassis swap to listen for a differencde in the two types of capacitors..provided a 44 and a 4410 are the same (anyone know?). It was a shame that 44 was destroyed because it looked and played perfect before the owner broke it up for the trash collectors.

It would be appropriate for an Organ Hall Of Fame to be located in Canton Ohio along side the Football Hall of Fame. Why? Because there are so many great organs in Canton.

- - - Updated - - -

[paulj0557]

The Wurlitzer 950, if it's anything like it's spinet version I own- the 625t, then it's going to be a love/sorta like relationship. On the other hand, if you get yourself a Wurlitzer 4500 it will be a love/love/love! relationship!

I have a 4500, the 625t, and a 4010 ( and a series 31, but needs minor restoring and a bench...oh' and a tone cab since I'm keeping it's 310 vibrato cabinet).

The 625t is a very good sound, sometimes very good, but never great. I'm thinking that maybe the 950 put the line into greatness, but not really enough examples to know this. Actually look up Glen Derringer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osOZdBO9t0M

Okay, so I listened to Glen make the 950 soar with the heavens! Yes, as much as I love my 4500 because of it's up front in your face realism in tone, I do appreciate the 950's variety. You won't get this variety from the Baldwin Cinema II, but it depends on what you call variety. If you would call all of the music made up to 1950 variety then the Cinema II has much variety. When I sit at my 64' Wurlitzer 4500 it is especially good at making the sweet tibia tone of the 1920's and 30's, probably better than either the Cinema II or the 950, but then if you consider thast there were many types of tibia then there are a few that the Baldwin really captures, just not the type I like as much as those on the 4500. A shame Jesse Crawford died two years before the 4500 was released because I bet he could have made it sing! So enough of the 4500...

The 950 does have the Orbit synth and if you like playing music spanning every era then the 950 will be your better choice. You really can play even modern film score type sounds on the 950. If you are into improvisation then the 950 is a blast! I get this excitement when I play my 625t. The fact that you can combine the upper full manual with the orbit is what makes it very fun to play, and musically fun,not just nonsense, but there is fun in nonsense too lol.

The thing I get from the Cinema II is that it would be a great organ if what you enjoy are slow standards, but then again the 950 has just as much warmth. After I play my Hammond organs for a long time, or any organ for that matter, when you sit down at any upper model spinet or console Wurlitzer of the 1955 to 1980 range you immediately feel like 'this the right sound!'. Wurlitzer really did build excellent instruments and they also were of excellent quality. Also, Morelock's http://mitatechs.org/morelock has any and every part for the 950's and will for many years in the future. This can't be said of Baldwin. Morelock's also will repair any board sent to them. One thing to watch on the 950, when you move it BE SURE TO LOCK THE RVERB SPRINGS WHEN MOVING 950 OR IT CAN BURN OUT THE CMOS CHIPS!

Now a fair price for a 950 in fully working condition is about $600 if it's pretty, clean, and fully functional. Note however that on Craigslist very few 950's show up in this condition. However, on the other hand many beautiful 4500's show up every year. In fact this one in my town of Columbus just sold for $25. It has no louvers on the top, it's a 4500R and therefor will be about a 71', when the 4500 line actually began in 64'. So if anyone can explain the lack of louvers on the 4500R it would be nice to know- here is the image of the 4500R ( hmm..did the 4500R's not have Spectratones? The Spect has so much to do with the excellent tibia tone on the 4500, so it would be a shame) REFER TO IMAGE & TEXT ON POST # 9