Percussion Question

[geoelectro]

I wouldn't say that the shorter Leslie's have "a lot less bass to start with". They have a tighter bass that is less boomy but not drastically less. Don't forget that in any recording you cannot anticipate what EQ may have been used. Even tape compression has an affect.

Backing off on the tone control in the organ also changes the balance of highs to lows.

Geo

[Brendon Wright]

I wouldn't say that the shorter Leslie's have "a lot less bass to start with". They have a tighter bass that is less boomy but not drastically less. Don't forget that in any recording you cannot anticipate what EQ may have been used. Even tape compression has an affect.

Backing off on the tone control in the organ also changes the balance of highs to lows.

Geo

Thanks Geo.
I forgot about the tone control in the organ.
That'd be a good adjustment for Myth to look into for the Lee Michaels sound since it has a fuller bass with less treble.

Myth, have you got a copy of the Service manual?

I've only had one experience with a lowboy leslie, but the tone of it might not have been typical.
My DIY leslie when on full volume has a similar bass to the PR40 which I guess is pretty atypical.



Kon remembered a few more things which I'll post up here too:

I forgot to mention that if Bill Beer had installed the BC manuals into Lee
Michaels's BV organ, then if the donor BC organ's serial number was below
5075 this means that it would have the non tapered manuals. The manual
tapering scheme was introduced sometime in 1937 and it was included in the
BC organs with serial numbers above 5075 as well as the Model A, C and D
organs still in production after the manual tapering schem was introduced in
1937. The manual tapering scheme was used in the various console organ
models built until the end of tonewheel organ production in 1975 and thus
including the BA, E, BV, CV, G, K, RT, B2, C2, RT2, A100 series, B3, C3,
D150-series, RT3 and the E-100 series console organs.

The H-100 series, the R-100 series and the X77 console organs from the
1960's and 70's as well as all the L-100 series, M, M3, M3 , M-100 series,
Porta B and the T-series spinet organs have the non tapered manuals so
therefore the H-100, R-100 series and the X-77 organs would sound closer to
the earlier era Model A and BC organs with the non tapered manuals if a
similar preamplifier was installed in these organs.

The non tapered manuals have both a deeper bass response as well as a
brighter treble response compared to the manuals with the manual tapering
scheme which tend to be more dominantly midrangey. I have played a wax
capped 1937 BC with the non tapered manuals and an AO28 preamp installed in
it and this BC was hooked up together with a wax capped 1957 C3 with the
AO28 preamplifier in it and the signal from the BC and the C3 went into the
same Leslie 760.

With the same drawbar settings and volume levels the 1937 BC sounded
clearer and deeper whilst the C3 sounded somewhat dull and muddy.

The pre 1937 Model A and BC organs with the non tapered manuals and the
'bass all the way down" and the resulting deep bass response are considered
to sound really good for Funky and Rock music.
All the best.
Kon.

[Brendon Wright]

I can't find a picture of the BC preamp chassis, but on the AO-28 in my C3 the tone control is a pot mounted in the chassis when you look in from the back of the organ.

Here's Geo's comment on a tone control question in 2009:

"Practically every Hammond out there has the tone control set fully clockwise. Since it only attenuates the highs as it is turned CCW, most want it turned fully CW so you have the full bandwidth. When organs have the generators re-capped, they sound much brighter. This may not settle with the owners all that well. So, by turning down the tone control, you can softer the blow... so to speak. "

[Sweet Pete]

Another way is to change the 200uf50volt cap to a 1000uf50volt cap in the Leslie amp.

[Brendon Wright]

Interesting, Pete!

A few weeks back I asked (input the name here of the guy I keep Kon-sulting) whether I would be best served with a 122 or a 147. (you have a fair idea why)
He listed a few differences, among them was this bit:

"The Leslie 122 has a treble cut capacitor at the input and a different value
feedback capacitor and resistor wired between the grid and the plate of the
6550 output valves and also a treble cut capacitor wired to the plates of
the 6550 output valves so this results in a slightly mellower sound compared
to the Leslie 147."

Is that the bit to change?

[Myth]

Wow, that's awesome that Kon remembered a few things!

My treasure (my BC) serial number is above 5k; in this case I guess it's unfortunate. When I get home today from finals, I will open up the back and search for that tone knob. If it's set at full, should I bring it down to about 5 o'clock? Hopefully the tone change will compensate for me not having the tapered manuals.

Could you ask Kon, what would be the best percussion system to copy the one Lee would have had? I'm assuming that the Trek II would be fine.

Now I'm getting interested in a new idea. Where on earth is Lee's organ? The article said he "got rid of it" in 1983. My guess, it probably got scrapped for parts. I'm sure most people don't want to invest in a Beer modified organ, since there was just too much stuff going on under the hood.

As for my Leslie, I am assuming Lee was using 122s. 122s, mic'd into really big amps. Would Kon have any idea what Lee was using at the time of "Live"? I've read Marshalls, Acoustic 360/361s, and Fender Super Showmans. I think a lot of Lee's tone came from cranked amps, since he would be getting that nice warm overdrive and have a boosted mid/bass EQ from the amp as well. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this!

[Brendon Wright]

George (Geo electro) would probably be the best to ask about percussion units.

Kon thought the percussion didn't sound unusual, so you're probably right about the trek II.

So evidently the BC is one of the early models which doesn't have percussion?

I remember hearing that Lee had a wall of amplifiers and on another forum one member said that the only concert he couldn't hack inside the theatre was Lee Michaels. He had to go outside where the sound was just fine!

The sound was knife sharp in there. I see on Michaels' own site (don't look for it, it spoils the fine image we've got of him. It's just a bunch of silly rants) one small page, in fact, the only page about music he says:


"getting ready to play out again.... why?....because it’s fun.....smiles


WOW!!... just got a wall of Mesa Boogie cabinets ... try 8 big M1200 cabinets... try powering it with 4 bad ass Mesa Boogie M9 Carbine amps....WOW!!... double WOW!!.. Trying to create a “complete sonic experience” without the pain of too loud...just want to move a lot of air...you can feel it in your chest.... sooooooo cool... once again my friend Randy Smith was there with the right stuff... Mesa Boogie.... yayyyyyy !!"

[Myth]

Hahaha, I've seen Lee's site. Take it with a huge lump of salt. I think that he's pretty funny, though I wish he was still one of us long-haired brothers!

I've yet to hear him play out, so I'd hate to invest in Mesa and have it not sounding so great to me, at least. Yeah, the BC doesn't have percussion. Just tremulant and chorus.

Tell Kon I cranked down the tone knob on my BC. It was set at full. I have only this to say: HOLY CRAP. Talk about bass and midrange. I wish I had done this sooner, the organ sounds so much fuller and fat sounding now. Plus, I have to crank the Leslie a bit more to get the same amount of volume, which means I get more of that overdrive goodness. I think Lee's organ had the tone knob all the way down. I think if I had percussion(and could play his songs) on, I would be making the Stormy Monday tones off the self titled lp. Good call on the tone knob Brendon!

[Brendon Wright]

Actually it was Geo who nailed on the tone knob.
Certainly saved a lot of effort with modifying something that didn't need modified!

George is a real, fair dinkum Hammond tech.
His site:http://www.bentonelectronics.com/blog/?p=76

He must shake his head in disbelief at some of the roundabout ways us amateurs do things!

[jdoc]

and he still finds time to point the hopeless towards the light......not a lot of the "real deal" Hammond pros out there anymore (based on the messes I have in the back my Hammonds...and not done by me)

Actually it was Geo who nailed on the tone knob.
Certainly saved a lot of effort with modifying something that didn't need modified!

George is a real, fair dinkum Hammond tech.
His site:http://www.bentonelectronics.com/blog/?p=76

He must shake his head in disbelief at some of the roundabout ways us amateurs do things!