Please Explain the "Lieblich Mechanism"

[NYCFarmboy]

I have 3 complete Reuter organs... opus 822: Lieblich Gedeckt with mechanism to lower the pressure on bottom 12 notes only.
opus 711: No lieblich gedeckt, but really needs it.
opus 412: It had a complete independant Swell 16' Lieblich Gedeckt / Bourdon rank so it had 2 16's on the pedal...an independant 16' pedal Bourdon ..and a "borrowed" 16' Lieblich Gedeckt that is a separate swell rank but plays on the pedal at 16' and 8'.

[Westminster]

Haskell pipes are open stops that make use of the haskell principle of highth reduction.

Jerry F Bacon-Dallas,Tx

Although rarely encountered there were also Haskell patents for stopped pipes as well as reeds.

[myorgan]

Although rarely encountered there were also Haskell patents for stopped pipes as well as reeds.

I remember seeing that somewhere with drawings of the concept. Must get tricky with the reeds--overtones and such.

My question stemmed from the fact that Haskelled pipes are already somewhat affected by the Haskelling process. I was wondering if a Lieblich applied to a Haskell pipe would/could be successful in any manner. I also wonder if wind pressure makes any difference.

I know Haskelled pipes are usually metal, but I've also seen drawings of wooden Haskelled pipes.

Michael

[jskumro]

I've seen a couple of examples of these stops in Buffalo. Two that I've looked at had a languid with two openings. Drawing the "Lieblich" stop would use only one opening, the Bourdon would use the other, larger opening, and both could be used when drawing both stops. Very interesting.

In the organ that I play, we have both a Bourdon and a Lieblich and they are two straight ranks.

[davidecasteel]

I have seen diagrams of Haskelled pipes, both metal and wood. My understanding is that the inserted pipe takes up half the cross-section and generally gives a brighter, more "stringy" sound than would be expected for the scale. I suppose they could be made "overscale" to compensate, but apparently this is seldom done.

David

[Westminster]

................generally gives a brighter, more "stringy" sound than would be expected for the scale. ...................

David

The effect of a haskell insert depends on how far the pitch is shifted by the treatment. If only a few notes the effect on the tone is almost nil. The effect progresses (logarithmically I believe) until the maximum pitch shift (10 semitones) is reached. At the maximum the timbre changes radically with even a few cents difference in pitch until the pipe suddenly will cease to speak.

[myorgan]

The effect progresses (logarithmically I believe) until the maximum pitch shift (10 semitones) is reached. At the maximum the timbre changes radically with even a few cents difference in pitch until the pipe suddenly will cease to speak.

That would explain it! When the Haskell device is inserted too far or removed too far in an existing haskelled pipe, the pipe's speech (attack), timbre, and voicing all change drastically. Would it stand to reason that in a haskelled pipe, a vertical change of 1" would have the same effect as moving the sleeve on an open pipe 2", or would that depend of the length of the haskell insert?

Michael

[davidecasteel]

Haskelled pipes have an effective length of the addition of the main tube plus the insert tube. It is possible to significantly reduce the overall length of a nominally open pipe by doing this, however (I understand) it is necessary to allow at least 6" above the pipe mouth before the insert pipe begins--otherwise pipe speech will be affected.

David

[therealtreywilliams]

Just to be clear--The Lieblich Gedeckt has existed since at least the 16th century and in German means "lovely gedeckt" or "lovely covered [flute]," and describes (most properly) a stopped flute rank which is more mellow and softer in tone than a Stopped Diapason or Bourdon. In the 20th century, the devices you have described came into existence due to the increased amount of smaller organs which could make use of an electric means of interrupting some of the wind supply to a larger-scaled Bourdon, and the term "Lieblich Gedeckt" was used as the devices approximated their namesake organ stop. This device is primarily used on smaller, less expensive instruments as it is cheaper and more space-saving than a separate rank of that size. Each builder/supply firm has their own way of doing this (if they do it at all).

Also, it's a little far to say that Haskell pipes do one thing or another to the tone of a given pipe...in the hands of a competent builder, Haskell pipes can run the full gambit of tone qualities, they just aren't voiced or built the exact same way as open pipes--it's like saying that putting a stopper on a pipe changes its tone quality and tuning--of course it does, but it is done very intentionally. In general, on the Haskell ranks I've heard/played, they're not generally incredibly distinguishable from any given normal rank--which is the point. However, they are more complicated to build and, provided you have the physical space, it isn't advantageous per se to build them haskell versus full-length or mitred.

[myorgan]

it's a little far to say that Haskell pipes do one thing or another to the tone of a given pipe...in the hands of a competent builder, Haskell pipes can run the full gambit of tone qualities, they just aren't voiced or built the exact same way as open pipes--it's like saying that putting a stopper on a pipe changes its tone quality and tuning--of course it does, but it is done very intentionally. In general, on the Haskell ranks I've heard/played, they're not generally incredibly distinguishable from any given normal rank--which is the point.

Thank you for your responses. You provided some good thinking points and new ways to view Haskelled pipes. Bottom line--I guess it depends on the builder how good the Haskelled pipes are. I wonder who made my Frazee Diapason pedal pipes? If I get a chance to visit where they're stored, I might look for some markings that will provide the builder.

Thanks again for your valuable input and new perspective.

Michael