New (used) Allen organ

[DRNewcomb]

My little church recently purchased an about 20 year-old Allen ADC - 2140 to replace an about 40 year-old Baldwin, which was fast fading away. The Allen has about $1100 in repairs needed due to a battery having leaked on a circuit card and a few other small items. The Allen technician is discussing the mounting of the speakers. One issue is that our church does not have much in the way of a convenient symmetrical large flat surfaces on which to hang the speakers. The old Baldwin had in-organ speakers and a large "Tone Cabinet" which was located in the loft at the back of the church.

Does anyone have any hints on installing Allen organs, and particularly the speakers, that would help us in dealing with the Allen technician? Any hints on ownership, care& feeding, etc. (I'm not a musician. I take care of the physical plant.)

Thanks!

[cantornikolaos]

http://www.pipeorganfacades.com/index.html

[circa1949]

For more than $1000 I hope you got the DM4 upgrade capture board that doesn't require batteries.
Others will chime in about the speakers but they don't need to be on a "symmetrical large flat surface" to work correctly. They just need to be concealed (preferably) and more or less able to project into the nave/sanctuary...in fact some people think indirect sound is better where the speakers project onto a wall and then back to the congregation; for that having enough power might come into play. It's good I suppose that an Allen dealer is helping you out with all this, but I wonder if many of them are really motivated to make a 25 year old organ sound its best.
I'm not sure if that model "allowed" 4 channel separation, but any MADC-xxxx organ is capable of it and it improves the sound. I think 4 channels was only standard on the 3160/3100. You can search this forum for my posts about the similar ADC-1140 I once owned. Good luck, it's capable of being a very pleasing organ if set up correctly in the right environment.

[DRNewcomb]

Thanks for the information. The issue of mounting the speakers is that any space around the sanctuary that is large enough to hang them seems to be taken up with other things, such as A/C vents, exposed beams, hymn boards, etc. We've been discussing hanging them in the loft at the rear of the church or trying to use some sort of hinged mount to allow the speakers to be hung from a 45º wall and swung out to face forward. The idea of mounting them for indirect sound is one that I will certainly present to the group studying how to do this.

[cantornikolaos]

Putting the speakers in the loft is a good idea. The sound will fill out into the church and that will be to good effect. Also, I'm a fan of indirect sound, especially when dealing with older electronic organs. When you're near the speakers, the sound is harsh and unnatural, but the less direct it is, the more pleasing it will be.

[davidecasteel]

One of the tenets I came across in my research when I was on our Organ Selection Committee is that organs project their sound best when they speak into the long axis of the room. Of course, that could be either direct or reflected. Bear in mind that, for much of the congregation, "direct" sound from behind (in the balcony) will have the effect of being "indirect" because much of what is heard will be reflections from the side walls. If the side walls have hard surfaces, it might be useful to actually point the rear speakers at an angle to the side walls (at least some of them).

What are the basic dimensions of the room (width, length, and height)? Where are the sound-absorbing surfaces, if any? (One should, in general, NOT aim speakers at surfaces covered with sound-absorbing material: carpet, acoustical tile, heavy draperies or hanging, etc. In fact, those materials should be used sparingly, if at all.)

David

[cantornikolaos]

How high is the ceiling?

[DRNewcomb]

How high is the ceiling?

Open trusswork A-frame about 40 feet high. Building is roughly 40' wide and 80'-90' long. The side walls are only about 10' high then the underside of the roof up to the peak. Small (15') narthex with a loft overhead. The vestry and sacristy are located on either side of the sanctuary behind a wood panel walls which cut into the sanctuary at 45º. They are about the size of walk-in closets. Walls are tile-brick with art-glass windows roof is wood, floor is carpeted and pews are padded. The carpet and pews absorb a lot so there is not much echo. The church is Lutheran, so the organ could almost be considered essential to the worship service. (80% of the liturgy is sung and written for organ.)

[Westminster]

A frame buildings can be quite difficult. If the included angle of the arch is less than 90 degrees there are no return reflections except from the horizontal or more obtusely angled truss members. (Angle of incidence equals angle of reflection) All upward reflections are dissipated at the peak. Speakers need to be located as high as possible to enable reflection patterns as complex as possible.

Pew cushions only minimize the difference between the building empty and occupied.

Carpeting in a situation such as this is particularly contraindicated. The floor is desperately needed as one of the main reflective elements of the acoustical design with the ceiling surfaces out of play.

[davidecasteel]

Working from his dimensions (40' high with 10' sides, 40' wide), I get a peak angle of about 68º--much too acute to allow much reflection back down. Assuming the loft is about 10'-12' above the floor (above the Narthex), there would be about 30' wide of headroom up there. Sound traveling upward will, as Westminster says, get trapped at the peak, so the trick will be to have the majority of the sound not be traveling vertically. Our older church building had acute-angled ceilings (underside of the roof, too) paneled with hard wood, and we definitely had a problem with sound trapping--it was so dead inside that everyone in the congregation thought he was singing a solo, no one could hear the person next to them singing or reciting the liturgy. However, the organ was in the balcony (very high up) and its sound projected into the space fairly well.

DRNewcomb has not mentioned what the ceiling treatment is, only that it's the underside of the roof. One hopes that it has not been paneled with sound-absorbent material, and that it is (hopefully) some hard-surfaced wood. If the ceiling is absorbent, there is no way an organ can possibly sound well in that space.

Going on the assumption that the ceiling has a hard surface, it would present a large flat surface that could be invoked to provide good reflections, if done right. I think I'd recommend that the main speakers be mounted about 10' above the front of the loft and more or less flat to the ceiling (pointed down and forward into the congregation space). The conical pattern from the speakers will irradiate the seating area with direct sound and the upward spread will reflect across to the opposite side of the space and then back down. It might be good to also have some speakers mounted high on the back wall of the loft pointed forward and downward slightly, to provide sound for those in the loft. Other possibilities are from the front of the loft, pointed slightly downward and perhaps a little toward the outer walls.

The carpeting is a definite detraction here, because the floor would be the major reflective surface in that room. Without the floor, the next best is the ceiling, because those 10' vertical walls don't help much. (Our current Sanctuary is 60' wide and 60' high at the peak, with 30' vertical walls--that works pretty well.)

Because a "loft" is mentioned and it's a Lutheran church, I've been assuming that the organ and choir are located there, rather than in front. It is important that the primary organ speech come from somewhere near where the organ console and choir are located so that the time delay is not a problem. If the choir and organist are up front, then the main speaker system should be there, too. If possible, I'd mount them on those 45º angled walls facing into the congregation.

Without seeing the actual space, it's a little hard to get a handle on just what the limiting factors are, so it's entirely possible that nothing I've said would be useful. However, it may at least stimulate some thought.

David