modern fugues

[Brendon Wright]

Being a fairly normal rocker I dropped my official musical education at the end of High School.... and perhaps didn't always pay a lot of attention during lectures but had a lot of fun learning that Tchaikovsky died from the local water and all....

Considering this I have a LOT of holes if you consider it from a classical or music history perspective.
So I need to ask: a Fugue is...?

...a theme and variations with at least two parts running in counterpoint? Polyphonic rather than homophonic....
What else?

What's the difference between a Fugue and a Toccatta? I've got a nice toccatta by Paradisi which I dig out from time to time (and THAT J.S.Bach one, of course).
The Paradisi one has a lot of counterpoint... actually... no. They're different parts. I see they swap hands at times but the same part isn't playing independently in both hands. One side is a little more pedestrian whereas counterpoint is the same part whizzing all over the place in both directions, right?

Indy, I finally got to hear In A Gadda Da Vida just now. I need to hear it again, but my initial, semi-educated feel is that while it has a definite (and damn cool) baroque feel, is it actually fugal? I'm not entirely certain, its a lot closer to the way the paradisi Toccatta in A I mentioned is structured, with the left moving in a contrary motion... but not reproducing the RH in a "round" fashion. Perhaps its some other baroquey thing?

Since you mentioned Merry Gentlemen, did you hear the final improv I settled on for Christmas? God Rest Ye Merry Euro Style was done in an Early 70's German rocker style, much tidier and shorter than the ramble I posted yesterday, and a good deal more fun to listen to. NOT fugal, melody in RH only, riffing in the left.

By the way folks, start thinking about tunes to record and post here for Christmas.

In parting, here's a very gothic piece on guitars and synth (with organ). It's also not fugal, but there IS a little counterpoint near the end.
It's based on a very familiar theme. Can you place it?
This one's a proper recording done for a film trailer, by the way.

[indianajo]

Well, wikipedia, that fount of all free knowledge, says a fugue is a piece where a theme is stated then little bits of it get tossed around against each other forwards and backwards etc, 3 notes at a time, 5 notes at a time. Not exactly a theme and variation. My music education stopped after high school, and there they taught us a lot more about circus music, show music, and russian music than anything baroque. Classical radio has been my main general music education, there was a classical "for profit" station in Houston from 1961- 1979, KLEF. Then there was Carl Haas and "Exploring Music" on the various classical (non-profit) FM stations around. Rock and pop have had the franchise on good melodies in the last 40 years, with the non-melody idiots getting government grants to write **** for symphonic orchestras. (I have heard 1 or two good modern symphonic bits, but I can't remember them now). Iron Butterfly apparently took too many "experience enhancers" to develop after their first album, the second was garbage. Manzarik noodles along in a baroque fashion between rants of Morrison (good poetry but he had a self important streak) probably the best recorded example is "LA woman". The PBS American Masters on the Doors explained how Manzarek would improvise along for tens of minutes in live performance while Morrison was lost in a fog of "experience enhancers" that he could not bother to share with the audience. I rather like variations that stay in the same key, as opposed to the lost in the harmonic wilderness wandering of Coleman Hawkins (right? saxophone player that got off the train in Tucumcari in 1953 to find a hit of horse?) and his followers.
All U-tube posts are lost on me, Ubuntu 8.1 operating system is as silent as the sphinx without the dancing commercial flash player plug-in downloaded, and in the interest of not watching flashing **** at the head of every page I look at, I never downloaded it. If anybody manages to produce a midi file, I might be able to export that to my EPS keyboard, but it would be a bit of a technical stretch. Sorry, missed your great art!

[Brendon Wright]

I'm a little primitive too... we have a 5gB monthly plan, so I really have to cross my fingers every time I visit the toob!
There are a whole lot of recent vids on Hammond Zone of members playing their stuff... I'm dying to take a peek at them but I'm sort of holding off til the end of the month. Mp3's are no problem. (though I did visit the vids on this thread).
I haven't yet progressed to the Doors. My favourite era is late sixties early seventies rock but there's so much to explore...
You're right about the "going to wierdsville" stuff losing the audience. Not a recommended practise even in those days, though I think today rock music has become very safe, not even exploring melodic frontiers in the classical way.

By "modern fugues" are you looking for more recent compositions, use of it in recent popular music, or appearances in rock thru the years? Fugues only or baroque styling? Or modern interpretations on fugal structure that don't even sound at all baroque?

[indianajo]

Well, I'm showing my age, I can't download the excellent examples of fugues the members of this forum have pointed out to me because I won't take the commercials with the pearls. (Flashplayer download enables dancing commercials plus Utube). InnaGaddaDavida was 1969, LA Woman was maybe 1974, so my examples aren't all that modern. The only more modern things I can talk about are variations Clapton & Winwood did in the middle of "Great Performances C&W @ Madison Square Garden" "Voodoo child", and maybe some "Jazz" stuff Jeff Beck did at the "Clapton Crossroads Guitar Festival" also on PBS. I listen to a little modern pop/rock on the public station when the classical station goes into hours of Great Opera on 78 RPM records or plays the third Mozart flute sextet in a row, but that pop/rock stuff is so simple, except for the modern poetry & stories.
Thanks for actually listening to "inna" etc. I see it as a Toccatta & fugue, the new melody to the new verse in the beginning and end are the toccatta, although the whomping bass line over and over are a bit more of a Passacaglia. (I'm learning JSB P&F in Cmin on the H182 now). Then in the middle of "inna" the keyboard pulls out this wordless section which I think is a fugue on "God rest ye Merry Gentlemen". Maybe I'm wrong- but at least someone listend to it after 6 months.

[Cudo]

Hey Cudo, are these recordings you playing or someone else..

Hi Bob,

these recordings is all me playing. To get into it I first start playing the original Bach chart -->http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usim...58-BWV0785.pdf
As soon as I get familiar with it, I start changing notes, putting additional embellishments and last not least, playing the whole thing in a half-time feel. This gives me more time in working out the underlaying harmonies. Initially I play this with a normal 4 bar drum loop. When everything sounds fine to me, I edit the drums in a sequenzing program and adapt them to my improvisation.

To understand a fugue, one must know the structure. There are several developments. In the first one there is the presentation of the Dux (a short theme). The answer of the Dux is called Comes. Mostly the Comes starts in the dominant tonality and modulates back to the tonic. Meanwhile the Comes is playing, the former Dux voice plays a contrapoint. This is essential to a fugue.
Further developments can modulate in key related tonalities, but not to far away. Between the different developments there are often couplets. These are connecting the different developments. The couplets are often composed by sequences, which are fine for modulations.

To study this, one could also make a training in transposing certain figures. For my students once I wrote down such an exercise. ---> www.cisum.info/bachinvention1.pdf

I do play the second voice always with my left hand, because I am not able to play pedals.

I think Jacques Loussier has a complete different approach to this which is of course very interesting. The fact alone he has a bass player opens other posibilities. But I am fine with my left hand.
Here is Bachs Inventio No. 1 --> www.cisum.info/inventio01ak.mp3

[Brendon Wright]

Brilliant! Thanks for all that, Cudo.
It's much more fun looking into things as an adult than it was as a youngster, its now all pleasure rather than work.
Did Bach even HAVE pedals to work on in his day?

-B

[Brendon Wright]

By the way, that last piece was a blast!

[Cudo]

Brilliant! Thanks for all that, Cudo.

Thank you for listening.

It's much more fun looking into things as an adult than it was as a youngster, its now all pleasure rather than work.

That's true. When I had to learn music theory in school, I'd rather prefered to play in my Rock-Band.

Did Bach even HAVE pedals to work on in his day?

Oh yes, he did have. But these 15 Inventions were concipated originaly for the piano/cembalo only.
Some of these I did on Electric Piano also, like number 12

Also I have to admitt that these Inventions are not strikly fugues. They have a lot of similarity but are some how loser in their architecture.
If you like reading music, you can go to YOUTUBE and search for CUDOTUBE. I did write out a view of my improvisations, so you can watch exactly what's going on. Also I included the original chart, to be able to compare.
In every Invention I first play a little introduction. This introduction sometimes have elements of things to come up later. The outro on the end of the tune is mostly a free playing over a fixed bassline riff.
But even when you play walking bass in the left hand, you are doing contrapuntual work. Just for an Organ Player this can be very usefull.

-B[/QUOTE]

[indianajo]

Brandon said "Did Bach even HAVE pedals to work on in his day?"
(How do you get those quotes in the blue boxes?)
Bach was the John McVie of his day, he took the idea of Buxtahude who wrote some things for two measure pedal riffs, and ran the idea out to 8 measures. You should really pick up a CD of Passacaglia & Fugue in C minor by JSB. It's my favorite piece in the world, and great on Hammond A-B-C-D-E's or H's. I bought a Hammond H-100 because no M, L, or any other 1 octave organ could do that low C. I lucked out that on the H that the low C is real, not synthetic, as all I knew when I bought it was that it had 25 pedals. I bought the H to learn that piece, a bonus is playing the bass riff from "Inna Gadda" etc with the string bass feature. Oh, by the way, did you know Dave Barry the humor writer nominated "Inna Godda-" as one of the ten stupidest rock songs in the world? I have to admit the incoherence of the lyrics is not why I admire it.
I started playing JSB 2 part inventions when I was nine, really like them but am a little jaded. #8 is a great introduction for the second year student to classical music, no (few?) sharps or flats. I've misplaced my Busoni annotated invention book, and won't be spending a lot of time looking for it either.

[Brendon Wright]

When I had to learn music theory in school, I'd rather prefered to play in my Rock-Band.

Actually , I was a tad late to bands! At high school I was a "good boy" with a fuddly brain (that's fuddle's never left me!) doing the music grades (though I got fairly lost at modes. Writing four part harmony was great stuff though.) The years in tertiary found me without piano OR organ, so I picked up electric guitar. This is where I probably got my overemphasis on extemporisation... at the expense of discipline, alas. Working as a window cleaner left me with some interestingly diverse multitrack prog recordings, though the last 5 years of retraining then starting business and getting a brace of Hammonds to noodle on (and modify. That's the real time killer....) has resulted in no proper recording, just fooling about.

Some of these I did on Electric Piano also, like number 12

Again, thanks for the recording, very much enjoyed and appreciated. Your discipline really pays off. I can imagine the creative bolt striking you as you decide (after a coffee?) "time for another invention!" and begin the search for a pen....

Also I have to admit that these Inventions are not strictly fugues. They have a lot of similarity but are some how lost in their architecture.

Whether it loses the fugal structure or not, the exercise in creativity is brilliant!! Throw as many recordings and teaching gems our way as you like, they're all very welcome.

If you like reading music, you can go to YOUTUBE and search for CUDOTUBE. I did write out a view of my improvisations, so you can watch exactly what's going on. Also I included the original chart, to be able to compare.

That's a good resource. Which software did you use to make the vid? The link to your salsa piano lesson page is a valuable resource too, for anyone who wants to follow it up. I see I'm discussing things above my head here! Not to worry, I'm enjoying your input, a pro who shares his time is always a grand thing.

In every Invention I first play a little introduction. This introduction sometimes have elements of things to come up later. The outro on the end of the tune is mostly a free playing over a fixed bassline riff.
But even when you play walking bass in the left hand, you are doing contrapuntual work. Just for an Organ Player this can be very useful.

So a counterpoint doesn't have to repeat the same theme, then? The Bach piece I know the best is of course the Dm toccatta, it's the same as the Scarlatti A toccatta I know and the odd bits by Henry Farmer I did, in the way it explores the bass in the left hand, quite similar to a jazz walking bass.

While it's often half the speed of the Right hand, is it in fact still a variation of the theme? Ah! Wikipedia explains counterpoint for me: "counterpoint is the relationship between two or more voices that are independent in contour and rhythm and are harmonically interdependent."
So a ROUND isn't counterpoint... right? Because it follows the same rhythm and contour? And the various toccattas ARE in counterpoint because they have different rhythm and contours but are depending on each other in harmony.

Ah, the "work bell" calls. Just time for a quick comment to Indy....