The Organ Forum

HI~~Thsi is Fred Lui from TAIWAN

 First of all introduce myself. I was typing"KAWAI T50 organ". and find Andy G's photos. So impressive. And so happy to know Andy was involved in KAWAI. and played, knew so much things about the monster organ.

 

I'm a old "vintage" Electone lover. My favorite is D85. E75. and C605. They all have beautiful String sounds. And C605 also has nice brass tones!

And its custom voice like Trumpet, is so real, even a little bit like FX's sounds.

I also have one EX1. but in the factory now to make it "module" to fit my room's door. My great and heavy baby~~

And my first electone is BK4C. 2nd is B-805. third is HS-8. All sold.

My first synth is DX7 II FD. first module is TX81Z.

Now I'm a pro popular music arranger in TAIWAN. Also play Fusion Jazz music in TAIWAN.

 

So, here is the question I have with many years.

 

What acutally is the synthesis using in FX series?

 The Manual saids it adapts "FAM" synth. If you had a DX7 or FM synthesizer. you will find. many sounds in FX20 are totally couldn't simulate by DX7. For example Like Piano. Strings. Trumpet in Solo manual (man...it's so real!)

 

So, I'm so curious. I guess, the FAM system is hybrid from FM synth and E70's PASS synth.

And maybe FX seires using 8-op FM, not the 6-op FM?

 

Hope there is someone could answer my lon time question. And I don't think I'm the only one to doubt this.

 

And also, Say hello to FlametopFred .

You are really so passionate with D85~~ I'm so impressed with the video you post on Youtube

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FOREVER FUSION

fred lui:

What acutally is the synthesis using in FX series?

 The Manual saids it adapts "FAM" synth. So, I'm so curious. I guess, the FAM system is hybrid from FM synth and E70's PASS synth.

G'day Fred,

"FAM" system is Yamahaspeak for "Frequency Modulation & Advanced Memory"  It has no connection with the previous PASS-B analog setup found in D85, C605 etc.  It is in fact the same FM technology that is found in DX7 and its siblings.  As for the number of operators in the FX models, frankly I can't remember, but I doubt it would be more than 6.  Most of the F series electones were 4 operator FM as were the DX7's little brothers, DX21,27, 100.

Hopes this helps,

Kam-pai,

Ian

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"If music be the food of love, play on!" - William Shakespeare.

Yeah. Most smaller FS's sounds are not same as FX.

 

But The sounds in FX are really so different from DX7.

If FX using the same synth. DX7 should replicate the sounds from FX.

But no.

like Piano. and trumpet. I didn't listen any DX-series could has that kind of sound quality.

Actually some string sound of FX are like GX1's....

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FOREVER FUSION

It seems still no one knows the secret of FX-series.

 

If FX20's sounds are FM as DX's. I'd like to using like virtual synth FM7 to replicate them.

I love the piano and hawaii guitar and the trumpet of solo keyboard.

strings are all beautiful~

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FOREVER FUSION

there is a local FX-20 I am hunting down ...and I think part of the sound of those larger FX Electones comes of course from the cabinet and speakers.  Of course, until I have a chance to run through a mixer and evaluate its only speculation.  Maybe also it's the way the FX-20 sounds are stacked ... you can have FM sounds (like the DX7) layered with some analog soudnds (I think) ..at least it looks that way from the manual.   Looks like a cool machine .. and the FX-20 seems to be the same as the FX-1, electroncially

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Yamaha D-85, E-70 and E-75 Electones

FX-20 is basically an FX-1 in a wood cabinet with built-in amplification.  The sales brochure states that all sounds are FM except the rhythm section which is FAM (an early sampling technology).  I don't believe any of the voices are analog.  Although the FX-20 has a whopper of sound system, the quality of its sound goes beyond just the PA system.  I have recorded on both my HS-8 and FX-20 using the line out jacks to a digital recorder and an analog tape deck.  The fullness of the FXs sound is evident even on the recordings.  The HS sounds thin in comparison.

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Organs:

Yamaha Electone HS-8
Yamaha Electone D-80 w/TM-5
Yamaha Electone FX-20

Synths:

Yamaha W7
Hammond XK-1

The FS and FX are all digital. I'm sure Crossy will know for sure but I think FM and FAM are exactly the same thing. FAM is just the marketing name that Yamaha used on the organs.

Differences in sound are all to do with the number of operators and the programming of the sounds.

Andy

 

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It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

andyg:

The FS and FX are all digital. I'm sure Crossy will know for sure but I think FM and FAM are exactly the same thing. FAM is just the marketing name that Yamaha used on the organs.

Differences in sound are all to do with the number of operators and the programming of the sounds.

Andy's got it in one.

There are however a few differences between FX1 & FX20.  FX1 has Upper to Lower & Lower to Upper couplers and the DRC (Dynamic Range Control) on all keyboards. FX1 has custom ABC, but is missing single finger & fingered chord, as you would expect with an instrument of this calibre.  FX1 came with two TX1 Cabinets @ total 620W vs. FX20 inbuilt sound system @ 210W.

Then of course the price - FX20 1983 realease price AUD$16,995.00.  FX1 1983 release price AUD$46,000.00

Cheers,

Ian

 

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"If music be the food of love, play on!" - William Shakespeare.

FX-1 is also missing the Play Assist features such as Melody on Chord, Duet, and Counter Melody.

 

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Organs:

Yamaha Electone HS-8
Yamaha Electone D-80 w/TM-5
Yamaha Electone FX-20

Synths:

Yamaha W7
Hammond XK-1

Here is a little info about the Yamaha.

In the 70's and '80's Allen had many patents on digital tone generation and was very agressive in enforcing them.  Any stored or sampled waveform technology was theirs.

Yamaha tried unsuccessfully to enter this market numerous times.  Their success came when Ralph Deutsch sold them his patents on a method of storing a waveform's harmonic structure in terms of Fourier coefficients.  Upon reconstructing the waveform using an inverse fourier algorythm you have the sampled tone which can then be combined with other tones and sent to a digital to analog converter then amps and speakers.  There are several problems with this:  fitst it takes a great deal of real-time processtng power plus this synthesizes the steady state sound.  It does not create the attack or decay waveform.  These must be added later.   It is interesting to note that this simply generates the same waveform that Allen was storing directly.   The purpose was to get around Allen's patents.  Now that the patents have run out,  most manufacturers are using direct waveform synthesis as it is simpler and allows the attack and decay to be more easily added plus trem can be digitally added.  

Al

I have heard a story, long time ago, that Yamaha partly funded New England Digital for research on FM synthesis.  The original Synclavier was a Four-Voice (or Four Partition?) FM Synthesizer with full digital control.  I remember playing one, very early on when it first came out, and had the technician walk me through the voices and how it worked.  When the DX-7 came out a year later, I pre-paid to have the first one that arrived in Canada (or one of the first ones).  As soon as I sat down with the DX, it felt like a "watered down" Synclavier, which I have come to believe that it was. It made sense, and it seemed to work in the same logical way that the Synclavier did.

That was all new (FM) back then in 1983.

Not sure if this makes sense, but it was something I heard or read ... can't quite remember the source. 

Before the DX-7 it was tricky to make FM type sounds (bells, etc) on the Minimoog or CS-80. 

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Yamaha D-85, E-70 and E-75 Electones

Thanks for those opinions and discussions.

If you have DX7 (I or II) you will find. the quality of sounds are very different.

Of course if you are familiar with FM's sounds. You can tell the FX are totally FM. but many sounds of FX-20. you just can't replicate from any DX.

(not including adding two single voices)

And some string sounds, in my opinion. sounds a little bit like GX1! Remember the Stevie wonder 's Village Ghetto Land's beautiful GX1's strings?

And I know the HX1 have 8-operators FM synth+AWM. HS only had 4-op FM synth. So the richness of sound are very different.

So, maybe, just Guess. FX's FM synth maybe using 8-op FM synth.....

If there is some old FX series' engineer could tell....  

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FOREVER FUSION

I was reading through the FX-20/FX-10 sales brochure the other day.  These Electones used 100% FM for its voices, but the rhythm section uses "FWM": Full Wave Memory - an early sampling technology.  Yamaha called the blending of this FM/FWM technology: FAM.   It's funny because I remember when the HX/HS series was released, they were really pushing the sampling ability of those machines, whereas they had already used it in the past.  I guess the big thing was AWM voicing when the HX was released.

 As far as how many operators the FX uses for its voices, that's anyone's guess.  I would think that the solo keyboard and custom voices are 8 operator and the others are 4 operator.  The FX-20's voices are definately better sounding than the HS-8's FM voices and we know the HS-8 is 4 operator.

 

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Organs:

Yamaha Electone HS-8
Yamaha Electone D-80 w/TM-5
Yamaha Electone FX-20

Synths:

Yamaha W7
Hammond XK-1

you guys are nasty ... now I want to buy the one that is for sale locally.  $300.  But I have a feeling it will be a good investment.  I just need a truck and some strong lads.  Nertz. But I could wait until an E-75 comes up for sale.  Or a GX-1

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Yamaha D-85, E-70 and E-75 Electones

I'm having more fun with my FX-20 than I ever thought I'd have.  By far my best purchase ever!

BUT, moving it was a nightmare.  Weighing in at 427 pounds, you're going to need four strong men minimum.  A flat cart on casters helps immensely.  Also, be prepared to remove several doors from their hinges.  It is just under 31 inches deep and considering most interior doors are 32 inches it is best to take them off.  One little known fact is that the FX-20 has four built in metal rollers on the bottom of the cabinet that allow you to roll it side to side.  I hope I never have to move again.  The FX-20 and D-80 both sit in my finished basement...

 

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Organs:

Yamaha Electone HS-8
Yamaha Electone D-80 w/TM-5
Yamaha Electone FX-20

Synths:

Yamaha W7
Hammond XK-1