A small organ (if there is in truth such a thing) [Archive]

View Full Version : A small organ (if there is in truth such a thing)

Austin766

12-03-2008, 12:08 AM

O.K. I was at it again, thinking up stoplists. I was reading Schoenstein's site last night when something they said struck me I don't remember the exact wording but the point of it said that it is the mark of the true craftsman to be able to come up with good, and serviceable stoplists for small instruments. That got me thinking, to a degree, any idiot can throw together a massive 3 million rank instrument, just take everything under the sun and throw it together, but to come up with a good small instrument is really tough, you must decide what is absolutely essential. To that end I set out this evening to think up thed smallest scheme that could really serve as a service (church) instrument. Sure I could go smaller, but too small and you wind up with a practice instrument, not an instrument to really lead services. So, I offer for comment the following stoplist. I could have gone smaller, but I feel that this organ is small enough to be a "small" organ but large enough to be practical.

Great Swell Pedal
16 Lieblich Gedackt 16 Bourdon 16 Principal
8 Gedackt 8 Principal 16 Bourdon
8 Principal 8 Bourdon 8 Bourdon
4 Gedackt 8 Spitzflote 8 Principal
4 Octave 8 Spitzflote Celeste 8 Gedackt
IV Mixture 4 Octave 4 Choral Bass
2 2/3 Nasard 4 Bourdon 4 Gedackt
2 Rohr Flote 4 Spitzflote 4 Bourdon
1 1/3 Terz III Fourniture IV Mixture
8 Oboe 2 2/3 Nasard 16 Trombone
8 Trumpet 2 Principal 8 Tromba
4 Clarion 2 Waldflote 8 Oboe
1 1/3 Tierce
16 Contra Bassoon
8 Bassoon
8 Trumpet
4 Clarion

OrgansR4Me

12-03-2008, 12:25 AM

Just one question about your formulation for the stoplist. What lead to your decision to sacrifice the string family? I come from a background of small electronic instruments and I vividly remember several of the companies used to brag that they were authentic because they had represented all four families of tone. Do you find the string family less useful since it isn't often used to accompany the congregation, but more in solo passages?

Austin766

12-03-2008, 12:53 AM

I find that some principals are actually kind of stringy (to my ear anyway). The ultimate idea behind this was to design the smallest possible instrument that in my mind still met some basic criteria for accompanying a congregation, but I also strove to make this instrument as flexible as possible, giving each division a complete chorus of flutes, principals and reeds, independent of the other divisions.

Don Furr

12-03-2008, 01:22 AM

If this is indeed a "straight" organ (each division standing on it's own without being a highly unitized organ) then to me at least this would not be a "small" organ. I think of small organs as 3-20 ranks. This is bigger!!!

NYCFarmboy

12-03-2008, 01:27 AM

that seems like a larger organ to me! and you need some strings..the Spitzflote/flute celeste is a luxury stop i think more appropriate for a larger organ......might wanna consider a salicional/voix celeste..or gambe/gambe celeste. :)

How many ranks would you use for that specification?

Austin766

12-03-2008, 01:35 AM

I suppose to a degree Small is relative, this is small compared to Skinner op. 328 (Cleveland Public Auditorium), or Wanamkers (isn't every thing small compared to Wanamaker?). However, I did intend for the divisions to at least be extended if not unitized.

Don Furr

12-03-2008, 01:52 AM

Yeah I guess that is relative. From experience the organs we tune in the southeast range anywhere from 13 ranks to 95 ranks. It would be interesting to see data on the "average" number of ranks in US organs.....including houses of worship and performing art centers. I might be way off but I would guess somewhere around 28 or less..

If your stoplist is indeed unitized then that cuts down considerably the number of ranks.

Austin766

12-03-2008, 02:16 AM

I was going to go for extension over unitization, since as I understand it extension would provide a greater amount of flexibility, I had intended each division to be independent of the others (except maybe the pedal), I am regularly at a Martini (not regularly enough my teacher would say...) but one thing I HATE about it is that there's really only one division, and there's really no independence between the manuals. I just wanted a "small" colorful, powerful, flexible and appropriate design. I'd like to maybe build this some day, but, for now it remains to use a trite pun a pipe dream.

Don Furr

12-03-2008, 03:20 AM

Ahhhh Austin766 never give up on your dreams. Good news is that there is so much used pipework, consoles and chests on the market you can build that organ for much less than you could would ever believe. Home organ projects are more fun than eating desert.

soubasse32

12-03-2008, 03:28 AM

That doesn't seem likea small instrument to me... [*-)] Could you tell us which ranks are unified and/or extended? It is hard to get a good picture of the instrument without that info.

As far as accompanying a congregation, I've done it on a 5-rank Moller Artiste. [:)] I've also played a recital of romantic music on it, which came off rather convincingly. Of course, it helps to have the entire instrument under expression as well asa big Diapason for hymn-singing.

If youare looking towards the French Romantic school here is a tiny - but extraordinarily effective - Cavaillé-Coll:

<TABLE>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD>Grand-Orgue</TD>
<TD>Récit</TD>
<TD>Pédale</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Bourdon 16'</TD>
<TD>Flûte harmonique8'</TD>
<TD>Flûte 16' (prepared)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Montre 8'</TD>
<TD>Viole de gambe 8'</TD>
<TD>Soubasse 16' (G.O.)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Bourdon8'</TD>
<TD>Voix céleste 8'</TD>
<TD>Flûte 8' (G.O.)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Salicional 8'</TD>
<TD>Flûteoctaviante 4'</TD>
<TD>Basse 8' (G.O.)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Prestant 4'</TD>
<TD>Octavin2'</TD>
<TD>Bombarde16' (prepared)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Flûtedouce 4'</TD>
<TD>Basson-Hautbois 8'</TD>
<TD>Trompette 8' (G.O.)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Trompette 8'</TD>
<TD>Voix humaine8'</TD>
<TD>G.O./Péd</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Récit/G.O.</TD>
<TD>Tremblant</TD>
<TD>Récit/Péd</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Expression Récit</TD>
<TD>Pédale du tonnerre</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>So - 14 ranks with no manual extensions... and it can play anything!OK, perhaps notbaroque music, but you'd be surprised how well some of it sounds on this instrument. I have an entire album of Guilmant pieces recorded on this organ, and I find that Inever tire of hearing it or wish for a larger instrument. The versatility of this C-C amazes me.

Austin766

12-03-2008, 03:47 AM

Great Swell Pedal
16 Lieblich Gedackt (ext) 16 Bourdon (ext) 16 Principal (ext)
8 Gedackt 8 Principal 16 Bourdon(ext)
8 Principal 8 Bourdon 8 Bourdon
4 Gedackt (ext) 8 Salicional 8 Principal
4 Octave (ext) 8 voix Celeste 8 Gedackt (Gt)
IV Mixture 4 Octave (ext) 4 Choral Bass (ext)
2 2/3 Nasard 4 Bourdon (ext) 4 Gedackt (ext)
2 Rohr Flote (ext) 4 Salicional (ext) 4 Bourdon (ext)
1 1/3 Terz III Fourniture IV Mixture
8 Oboe 2 2/3 Nasard 16 Trombone (ext)
8 Trumpet 2 Principal (ext) 8 Tromba
4 Clarion (ext) 2 Waldflote (ext) 8 Oboe (Gt)
1 1/3 Tierce
16 Contra Bassoon(ext)
8 Bassoon
8 Trumpet
4 Clarion (ext)

I hope this clears thing up some, I know it isn't necessarily "small" but compared to some of the things I've cranked out, this is small. A Moeller Artiste is an entirely different animal from say a six rank Martini... I could see leading a congregation (not huge) with an Artiste, but a Martini....nuh-uh. I really wanted reasonable independence of divisions. EDIT I replaced the spitzflote & celeste with a string and matching celeste.

davidecasteel

12-03-2008, 06:29 AM

I'm not an expert, but I think a 4' reed on the pedals (Schalmei, perhaps) would be more useful than having 2 4' stopped flutes there (Gedackt and Bourdon)--I'd replace one of the flutes with a reed. Of course, I'm a neophyte with little experience, so others may feel differently about it.

David

soubasse32

12-03-2008, 05:23 PM

Great Swell Pedal
16 Lieblich Gedackt (ext) 16 Bourdon (ext) 16 Principal (ext)
8 Gedackt 8 Principal 16 Bourdon(ext)
8 Principal 8 Bourdon 8 Bourdon
4 Gedackt (ext) 8 Salicional 8 Principal
4 Octave (ext) 8 voix Celeste 8 Gedackt (Gt)
IV Mixture 4 Octave (ext) 4 Choral Bass (ext)
2 2/3 Nasard 4 Bourdon (ext) 4 Gedackt (ext)
2 Rohr Flote (ext) 4 Salicional (ext) 4 Bourdon (ext)
1 1/3 Terz III Fourniture IV Mixture
8 Oboe 2 2/3 Nasard 16 Trombone (ext)
8 Trumpet 2 Principal (ext) 8 Tromba
4 Clarion (ext) 2 Waldflote (ext) 8 Oboe (Gt)
1 1/3 Tierce
16 Contra Bassoon(ext)
8 Bassoon
8 Trumpet
4 Clarion (ext)

Thanks for clearing up a few things. More questions however...

Your Tierce and Terzare listed as1 1/3' - either thoseshould beQuints or Larigots or you've got your feet mixed up. [:)]

Two2' stops seem a bit much in the Swell; it is a luxury even on a larger instrument.

I assume the Oboe on the Great is from the Swell? If not, why not have a Cromorne instead of having a 2nd Oboe? You could even have it play at 4' pitch in the Pedal, which would approximate the Schalmei that David wants. [;)]

The one thing I would definitely avoid:borrowingyour 4' stops from your 8' Principals. Your 4' will end up being out of balance, especially since you have mixtures on this instrument. You need yourprincipal chorusto be as independent as possible.

...Which brings up another point: I count 28 ranks, which isfairly sizeable. What you have are many 8' stops, no independent 4' stops, then mutations,mixtures, and reeds. There is a hole in the middle! You should perhaps have more independent 4' stops and one or two fewer mutations and/or mixtures. It will sound more pleasing, I think.

The Pedal Mixture is extraneous, in my opinion. I've played some very fine, large instruments without a Pedal Mixture and never missed it.

The only other thing I would do (if I were designing the spec) would be to keep the nomenclature of all extended stops the same, just so the organist knows exactly which stops are derived. So the Bourdon doesn't turn into a Waldflöte, etc.

Austin766

12-03-2008, 08:01 PM

So, you're suggesting something like
Great Swell Pedal
16 Gedackt (ext) 16 Bourdon (ext) 16 Principal (ext)
8 Gedackt 8 Principal 16 Bourdon(ext)
8 Principal 8 Bourdon 8 Bourdon
4 Gedackt (ext) 8 Salicional 8 Principal
4 Octave 8 Voix Celeste 8 Gedackt (Gt)
IV Mixture 4 Octave 4 Choral Bass (ext)
2 2/3 Nasard 4 Bourdon (ext) 4 Gedackt (ext)
2 Gedackt (ext) 4 Salicional 4 Bourdon (ext)
1 3/5 Terz III Fourniture 16 Tombone (ext)
8 Cromorne 2 2/3 Nasard 8 Tromba
8 Trumpet 2 Bourdon(ext) 8 Oboe (SW)
4 Clarion (ext) 4 Schlamei (GT)
16 Contra Bassoon(ext)
8 Bassoon
8 Trumpet
4 Clarion (ext)

Yes, I did get my feet mixed up, I'm not quite sure where my brain was, but it was on the task at hand, drawing up this spec.

soubasse32

12-03-2008, 09:07 PM

Now you're cooking with gas! [Y][8-|]

Just put (ext) after the 4' Salicional and fix your "Tombone" [:)]

You might want to have that 16' Bassoon in the Pedal too.

One more thing... Iprefer to only have one extension per stop(16'/8' or 8'/4' or 4'/2'). Two extensions per stop is OK in the Pedal, since it is a small instrument.

Austin766

12-04-2008, 12:51 AM

so just to hash this over once more, you're suggesting something along the lines of

Great Swell Pedal
16 Gedackt (ext) 16 Bourdon (ext) 16 Principal (ext)
8 Gedackt 8 Principal 16 Bourdon(ext)
8 Principal 8 Bourdon 8 Bourdon
4 Gedackt (ext) 8 Salicional 8 Principal
4 Octave 8 Voix Celeste 8 Gedackt (Gt)
IV Mixture 4 Octave 4 Choral Bass (ext)
2 2/3 Nasard 4 Bourdon (ext) 4 Gedackt (ext)
2 Gedackt 4 Salicional (ext) 4 Bourdon (ext)
1 3/5 Terz III Fourniture 16 Tromba (ext)
8 Cromorne 2 2/3 Nasard 16 Bassoon (SW)
8 Trumpet 2 Bourdon 8 Tromba
4 Clarion (ext) 8 Oboe
16 Contra Bassoon(ext) 4 Schlamei (sw)
8 Bassoon
8 Trumpet
4 Clarion (ext)

soubasse32

12-04-2008, 08:03 AM

That looks pretty good - what do you think of it, compared to your original spec?

Austin766

12-04-2008, 04:25 PM

Well, its certainly a lot easier to read than the original Spec (which I wrote on the inside of a Kellogg's Nutrigrain Bars box)[:O]. I think it makes more sense, and seems a bit more like what you might expect in an instrument of about that size. I also think it incoroprates some rather unexpected colors for an instrument of its size but is definitely an instrument I'd love to play and do my practice on (though my teacher really insists I do my practicing on the Martini). The thing about other instruments is when you go buy one they tell you don't get it unless it sounds and feels good to you, well, the martini feels ok, but I don't like the sound, I don't care too much for the sound of a Quintadena that close, and the instrument seems to be more or less built around the 8' Guintadena.

soubasse32

12-04-2008, 07:30 PM

Well, its certainly a lot easier to read than the original Spec (which I wrote on the inside of a Kellogg's Nutrigrain Bars box)[:O].Well seeing as how the Martini got its name, we might as well call this the Nutrigrain organ. [;)]

m&m's

12-05-2008, 01:40 PM

so just to hash this over once more, you're suggesting something along the lines of

Great Swell Pedal
16 Gedackt (ext) 16 Bourdon (ext) 16 Principal (ext)
8 Gedackt 8 Principal 16 Bourdon(ext)
8 Principal 8 Bourdon 8 Bourdon
4 Gedackt (ext) 8 Salicional 8 Principal
4 Octave 8 Voix Celeste 8 Gedackt (Gt)
IV Mixture 4 Octave 4 Choral Bass (ext)
2 2/3 Nasard 4 Bourdon (ext) 4 Gedackt (ext)
2 Gedackt 4 Salicional (ext) 4 Bourdon (ext)
1 3/5 Terz III Fourniture 16 Tromba (ext)
8 Cromorne 2 2/3 Nasard 16 Bassoon (SW)
8 Trumpet 2 Bourdon 8 Tromba
4 Clarion (ext) 8 Oboe
16 Contra Bassoon(ext) 4 Schlamei (sw)
8 Bassoon
8 Trumpet
4 Clarion (ext)


At the risk of differing with Soubasse, who isquite an authority on organs and organ design, may I make a suggestion or two, or three? 

On the Great, some kind of Principal at the 2' level would be more appropriate than a 2' flute, and, even if you do use a 2' flute, a Gedackt would not be the best choice. On the Swell, a 2' Blockflute or Waldflute would certainly be better than a 2' Bourdon. If you are trying to save money, an 8' Principal is not necessary on the Swell, and then the 4' Octave would become 4' Principal. Also, since you have included a stopped 8-4 flute on the Great, a different kind of flute might be better for the Swell, probably a Rohrflute, and then the 16 extension would probably be a Lieblich Gedackt, which would also make a nice borrowed stop in the Pedal. I don't see a reason for the 2 2/3' Nazard on both manuals; you could omit that on the Great, and maybe specify a 1 3/5' Tierce on the Swell instead. Did you possibly mean to include an 8' Bourdon on the Pedals also, since you show 16' and 4' Bourdons there? It would be better to use the Swell Flutes on the Pedal rather than the Great Flutes. Finally, and this is a matter of personal preference, I would choose to put a higher pitched Mixture on the Swell, something like a Scharf. Of course, if this is for a home, you might not like such a high pitched Mixture.

Philip the organist

12-05-2008, 03:36 PM

Austin766,

You could combine the swell Principal 8' and Salicional 8' into a Geigen Diapason. I played a Dobson that was built like this and it was quite a good idea IMHO.

regeron

12-05-2008, 11:58 PM

This is a delightful challenge. Unfortunately, we are missing some hypothetical information. How big is the congregation? How reverberant is the church? Mechanical action or assisted? Although this is not a large instrument, I consider it to be too big to be a "small organ." How about taking up the challenge of something under 20 stops?

A friend and I used to visit organs; afterward, we would ponder -- 1) If we could add one stop, what would it be? 2) If we had to remove one stop, which one would it be?3)If we could remove one stop and put another in its place, what change would we make? We would also sit down and come up with stoplists for 10- 14- or 18- [or whatever] stop organs.

In looking at your stoplist, you are tempting boredom by having all the flutes stopped. A bourdon and gedackt are really the same thing - stopped flutes. How about an open flute somewhere? Or a half-stopped flute? And other than the Swell strings, and a couple reeds, your two manuals are virtually identical.

One option, and not the only one, is to follow a Werkprinzip idea: each division has a different Principal as it's starting point - 16' in the Pedal, 8' on the Great, and 4' on the Swell.

I'll see if I can find one of those small organ stoplists that we designed "oh so long ago."

soubasse32

12-06-2008, 12:08 AM

Finally, and this is a matter of personal preference, I would choose to put a higher pitched Mixture on the Swell, something like a Scharf.The only thing is, he didn't specify pitches of his mixtures - that leaves it wide open to interpretation. [:)]

I don't mind the 2' Gedackt on the Great, only because it makes a nice Cornet séparé - assuming his Mixture starts at 2' the 2' Octave could be left off. If he really wants the sound of a 2' Principal he could play a 16' + 8' Principal up an octave, on either manual.

Two Nasards are a bit much - perhaps one could be a Twelfth or Quint. Or neither.

A Swell Diapason is indeed a luxury - the right 8' flute and 8' string can simulate that.

As far ascontrast between the flute stops the Great 8' Gedackt could be stopped wood; the 8' Bourdon could well be in the French style: a Chimney Flute. That would be a nice contrast. 

The 2' stops have the same name as their 4' and 8' (and 16') extensions, at my suggestion. Of course, the character of the stop could (and should probably) change throughout the gamut. A 16' Bourdon could have stoppered wood basses, chimneys for several octaves, and then could end up as a Spitz Flute in the treble. If that is done then the nomenclature could have something like Bourdon 8', Bourdon/Spitz Flute 4', Spitz Flute 2'on thestop faces- that is not typically done, but I think it would be nice to do it that way.

Of course, if this is for a home, you might not like such a high pitched Mixture.I'd vote for no Mixtures, if it were in my house! [:)] Mixtures require a fairly live acoustic if they are to 'do their thing' withoutcausing headaches and grumpiness. [;)]

Don Furr

12-06-2008, 01:14 AM

I agree. No Mixtures for this organ iF located in a home. After 2 years I pulled my III Mixture from my home organ. Its was too much and my console was too close. I have a 15th in the Great which is PLENTY. No more headaches for me!!![:D]

Austin766

12-06-2008, 01:52 AM

Well, I guess to answer a few questions, I was figuring the mixtures at
2' pitch. The action was to be electric or e/p (esp. if you assume all
standard couplers, which I didn't write into the specs, but had planned
on anyway). I'd gladly pull out one of the stopped flutes if I could
come up with an open or partially open flute. And as for the size of the congregation, I don't know, I was merely trying to come up with a small, useful and colorful organ. Money is no object here, I took no account for the price of this and don't really care to, since I have college textbooks to buy and those unfortunately take precedence over an organ (though the organ would be way more fun and useful, not to mention a better investment, but text books are another subject...one about which I wrote my Senators and Representative in Washington...).

The reason for some of the identicalness of the manuals is that I used to play an Allen which I felt had a lovely flute chorus on the swell, but that was also the location of the organ's only reeds, and I was playing the Wachet Auf (Bach) and got stuck with an annoying set of Principals on the Great in order to use the reeds. And although I could have put an "alterable" reed on the Great, it still would have been enclosed with the Swell, and since I would have had the Swell wide open for the flutes, the reed would have thrown off the balance. So I wanted each manual to be well equipped and have as many colors as I could provide.

regeron

12-06-2008, 04:31 AM

Austin, you bring up the issue of balance, which is a crucial one. Some organs have fallen into the trap of "flutes are soft, reeds are loud." We need to remember that a color difference can be just as important as a volume/dynamic difference. It sounds like the Allen in question was 'out of balance' dynamically,and you were stuck in a position of being dissatisfied with what it had to offer.

If the flutes had been a bit stronger, maybe your choices would have become "8' alone to accompany? or 8' + 4'?" Especially if you are talking about accompanying a congregation [in your home?], it's nice to have some solid flutes as a foil to the sound of the principals.

regeron

12-06-2008, 04:34 AM

Oh, and mixtures? I would agree with those who wouldn't have one on a home instrument. And if I had two, I would have them starting at different pitches. On a small organ, you need more variety. Again, by having them start at the same pitch, you are wasting a stop, and missing an opportunity to put something different in its place.

Austin766

12-06-2008, 04:56 AM

Well, how would you rework the stoplist? It may be easier to see it in the specification rather than talk about it (of course it'd be so much easier if I had an organ laboratory where I could do everything I want to do with an organ (in terms of building & spec) and hear it.

I'm half tempted to just put up the specs of the 1986 Cleveland Hradetzky, but I'll refrain from that for now.[:D]

cosmicpanda

12-06-2008, 11:16 PM

<table class="MsoTableGrid" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none;mso-border-alt:solid black .5pt; mso-border-themecolor:text1;mso-yfti-tbllook:1184;mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt"><tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes"><td width="205" valign="top" style="width:154.0pt;border:solid black 1.0pt; mso-border-themecolor:text1;mso-border-alt:solid black .5pt;mso-border-themecolor: text1;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt">Great<o:p></o:p>[/b] </td> <td width="205" valign="top" style="width:154.05pt;border:solid black 1.0pt; mso-border-themecolor:text1;border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black .5pt; mso-border-left-themecolor:text1;mso-border-alt:solid black .5pt;mso-border-themecolor: text1;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt"> Swell<o:p></o:p>[/b] </td> <td width="205" valign="top" style="width:154.05pt;border:solid black 1.0pt; mso-border-themecolor:text1;border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black .5pt; mso-border-left-themecolor:text1;mso-border-alt:solid black .5pt;mso-border-themecolor: text1;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt"> Pedal<o:p></o:p>[/b] </td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:1;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes"> <td width="205" valign="top" style="width:154.0pt;border:solid black 1.0pt; mso-border-themecolor:text1;border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid black .5pt; mso-border-top-themecolor:text1;mso-border-alt:solid black .5pt;mso-border-themecolor: text1;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt"> 16' Bourdon<o:p></o:p> *<o:p></o:p> 8' Open Diapason<o:p></o:p> 8' Stopped Diapason<o:p></o:p> 8' Corno Dolce<o:p></o:p> *<o:p></o:p> 4' Octave<o:p></o:p> 4' Hohlflute<o:p></o:p> 2-2/3' Quint<o:p></o:p> 2' Fifteenth<o:p></o:p> </td> <td width="205" valign="top" style="width:154.05pt;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid black 1.0pt;mso-border-bottom-themecolor:text1; border-right:solid black 1.0pt;mso-border-right-themecolor:text1;mso-border-top-alt: solid black .5pt;mso-border-top-themecolor:text1;mso-border-left-alt:solid black .5pt; mso-border-left-themecolor:text1;mso-border-alt:solid black .5pt;mso-border-themecolor: text1;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt"> 8' Geigen Diapason<o:p></o:p> 8' Cor de Nuit<o:p></o:p> *<o:p></o:p> 4' Gemshorn<o:p></o:p> 2' Spitzflute<o:p></o:p> 1-1/3' Larigot<o:p></o:p> *<o:p></o:p> Sesquialtera II<o:p></o:p> *<o:p></o:p> 8' Clarinet<o:p></o:p> <o:p>*</o:p> </td> <td width="205" valign="top" style="width:154.05pt;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid black 1.0pt;mso-border-bottom-themecolor:text1; border-right:solid black 1.0pt;mso-border-right-themecolor:text1;mso-border-top-alt: solid black .5pt;mso-border-top-themecolor:text1;mso-border-left-alt:solid black .5pt; mso-border-left-themecolor:text1;mso-border-alt:solid black .5pt;mso-border-themecolor: text1;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt"> 32' Resultant<o:p></o:p> *<o:p></o:p> 16' Bourdon<o:p></o:p> *<o:p></o:p> 8' Principal<o:p></o:p> 4' Spitzprincipal<o:p></o:p> *<o:p></o:p> 32' Sordun (ext.)<o:p></o:p> *<o:p></o:p> 16' Sordun<o:p></o:p> <o:p>*</o:p> </td> </tr></tbody></table>
How about this?*The structure of the Great is based upon the work of a local organ builder who went out of business several years ago. I've played a few of his organs, though, and while I deplore their weak pedal departments I quite like their Great divisions. It could be taken stop-for-stop from one of his organs, except for the Corno Dolce, which takes the place of the Trumpet. I've played a Corno Dolce on an organ originally built by Norman & Beard, and it seems a useful flute stop.*The Swell is based upon the Rugpositive of the small organ belonging to my university. That division just has an 8' stopped flute, a 4' principal, a 2' Gemshorn and a Sesquialtera. It works well and so I've included flutes at 8', 4', and 2' pitches plus a Sesquialtera in order to replicate that effect. I feel that since there's an 8' principal of sorts a 4' principal isn't really necessary. The Larigot could be used in place of the Sesquialtera for a different effect. I'm learning some Mulet at the moment, in which an 8' Clarinet is called for, and so I decided that this could be quite useful.*With regard to the pedal, I've always wanted a 32' reed, and although I've not actually heard a sordun, it seems a useful way to get 32' tone without 32' ceilings. Perhaps it is the most likely aspect of this organ to be criticised by the more experienced organists on this board, but hey. I've tried to make the pedal fairly independant of the other divisions, and most of the time I'd probably just use the 16', 8', and 4' flues.**Things I like about it - the Corno Dolce and Cor de Nuit are favourite stops of mine, so they're on this. I've also found Geigen Principal stops to be quite charming, so as suggested on this thread it takes up the position of Diapason and String on the Swell. I've also found 4' Gemshorn stops to be quite beautiful, so it's part of the Swell chorus.**Things I don't like - no big mixtures, and only one mutation over 2'. No 16' Open Diapason on the Pedal, but if building this organ in a house I probably couldn't fit one in. No reed on the Great, although I've found in practice I don't use them much anyway...

bcollins

12-07-2008, 03:27 AM

I like this one. Two suggestions I would make which would not impact the cost in terms of pipe work, only at the console:

Make the Sesquialtera seperately drawn which would give you more versatility having a2-2/3 quint and a tierce in the swell. That helps solve the problem of having more mutations. Ditto for the Pedal, assuming the 16' rank of the resultant is independent of the Bourdon - a louder double stopped diapason [Subbass] - have the 10-2/3' seperately drawn as well, but voiced perfectly with the Subbass so as to get an effective resultant.
This way you have two 16' in the Pedal for versatility; the "Bourdon 16"being voiced softer for lighter registrations.

My 2 cents.

soubasse32

12-07-2008, 04:41 AM

With regard to the pedal, I've always wanted a 32' reed, and although I've not actually heard a sordun [snip]I have news for you, and it is not good. [:D]

I took my earliest organ lessons on aninstrument with a 32' Sordun - it was one of the oddest things I've ever heard. The organ was fairly sizeable, sowhenever you wanted a 32' reed the organ overpowered it. By itself, the sound was rather impolite. [:$] I was amazed at how small the resonators were (in this case, 4'). The other drawback was that the stop was often very out of tune.

A Sordun on a home organ would be curiously wonderful, as long as it is easily accessible for tuning. I do think it would be best on a baroque-style instrument. The instrument that you sketched out seems a bit more romantic (or maybe I should say eclectic); on such an organ I would rather have a 1/2 length 16' stop such as a Bassoon (if there is room, and if the acoustic allows). I would leave off the 32' reed- the shorterthe resonator, the moreraucousthe sound tends to be - andyou don't want that in your face! I'd save the $$ and space for another stop such as a Celeste. [:)]

I'dprobably leave off the Resultant too - only because they require an abundant acoustic in order to work properly. You will still have the opportunity to hear occasional fleeting 32' resultants whenever the manual 16' Bourdon comes up against the Pedal Bourdon at a fifth. That is one acoustical effect Iparticularly enjoy when listening to organ music!

cosmicpanda

12-07-2008, 09:35 AM

Bob, I like the idea of keeping the Sesquialtera as a mixture. Splitting it would give different possibilities and I can see why you suggest it, but it's a psychological thing to me. In addition, when I said there was a lack of mutations over 2', I really meant that I regretted the small principal chorus; and from what I understand, the Sesquialtera ranks tend to be more flutey. (is it really? The organ stops encyclopaedia says that they're supposed to be diapason ranks... but when people talk of splitting the sesquialtera, they seemingly always talk of the Nasard rank and the Tierce rank, which I associate with flutes.) But thanks for your input.

*

Soubasse32, your news is indeed tragic. Perhaps, then, we could turn to mitering and creative placement of windchests and replace the Resultant with a 16' extension of the 8' Principal, or even a full 16' principal rank by itself, and replace the 16' and 32' Sordun with the Bassoon you suggest.

*

How much would you modify to transform the organ I suggested into a Baroque style one with a Sordun? I know the Corno Dolce would have to go as it's a modern stop, and the Stopped Diapason would probably be re-named Gedackt, and you might replace the Great Quint with a mixture, but what would you do to the Swell? Replace it with an unenclosed positive of some sort? What manual reed stops would you suggest?

Menschenstimme

12-07-2008, 06:58 PM

Hi Cosmicpanda,

Rather than trying to transform this organ further, please allow me to share my residence organ specification with you. While my organ is a "parts organ" most of the pipes are from two 1960s residence organs. The mixture works well in my 300 square foot room, which is smaller than the narthex (aka vestibule) of my church. I prefer a bright sound, but my mixture blends rather than shrieking out over the rest of the ensemble. I have a 16/8 trumpet stop with a half-length bottom octave which also blends in well. Hope this helps:

<H1>CLASSICAL ORGAN -- Nine Registers - Eleven Ranks</H1>


SWELL (unenclosed) GREAT PEDAL


Flute 8 Principal 8 Flute 16

Principal 4 Gedackt 8 Principal 8

Flute 4 Prestant 4 Flute 8

Octave 2 Flute 4 Octave 4

Quint 1 1/3 Super Octave 2 Trumpet 16

Mixture II Wald Flute 2 Trumpet 8

Trumpet 8 Mixture III Trumpet 4

Trumpet 8


Tremulant Swell to Great 16 Great to Pedal 8

Swell to Great 8 Great to Pedal 4

Swell to Swell 16 Swell to Great 4 Swell to Pedal 8

Swell to Swell 4 Great to Great 16 Swell to Pedal 4

Great on Swell 8 Great to Great 4


Unified Ranks:


Principal 8 (GT) Principal 4 (SW) Principal 8 (P) Octave 4 (P)

Flute 8&4 (SW) Flute 4 (GT) Flute 16 (P) Flute 8 (P)

Super Octave 2 (GT) Octave 2 (SW) Mixture II (SW-Octave 1 + Quint 1-1/3)

Trumpet 16-8-4 (all divisions)


Combinations: Sixteen general pistons, twelve thumb pistons and four toe studs

Eight Memory Levels Crescendo Pedal

Great to Pedal reversible toe stud, Sforzando thumb piston & toe stud


Wind Pressure: 2-3/8"-2-1/2"

Flue pipes, for the most part, by Jacques Stinkens, Zeist, Holland

Trumpets by Robert Schopp, Alliance, Ohio, U.S.A.

Tonal finishing by Donald L. Kohles, Los Angeles, California, U.S.A.

Chestwork by Donald L. Kohles, Los Angeles, California, U.S.A.

Blower by G. Meidinger and Company, Basel, Switzerland

D. C. Power Supply by Astron Corporation, Irvine, California, U.S.A.

Console by Klann Organ Supply, Waynesboro, Virginia, U.S.A.

Combination Action (solid-state electronic with 8 memory levels) by Peterson

Relay (solid-state electronic) by Peterson, Worth, Illinois, U.S.A.

Tremulant by August Laukhuff, Weikersheim, Germany

soubasse32

12-08-2008, 06:35 AM

Bob, I like the idea of keeping the Sesquialtera as a mixture. Splitting it would give different possibilities and I can see why you suggest it, but it's a psychological thing to me. In addition, when I said there was a lack of mutations over 2', I really meant that I regretted the small principal chorus; and from what I understand, the Sesquialtera ranks tend to be more flutey. (is it really? The organ stops encyclopaedia says that they're supposed to be diapason ranks... but when people talk of splitting the sesquialtera, they seemingly always talk of the Nasard rank and the Tierce rank, which I associate with flutes.) But thanks for your input.

How much would you modify to transform the organ I suggested into a Baroque style one with a Sordun? I know the Corno Dolce would have to go as it's a modern stop, and the Stopped Diapason would probably be re-named Gedackt, and you might replace the Great Quint with a mixture, but what would you do to the Swell? Replace it with an unenclosed positive of some sort? What manual reed stops would you suggest?I hate to lose an expressive division (especially in a home installation) but if you want a true baroque instrument that is exactly what you would do (lose the swellbox). I also might change your Geigen Diapason to a Gamba. If you want to do the wide/narrow school of thought you could have your wideCor denuit and have the other stop be a narrow Quintadena - but that would be rather severe (and that is the stop that a lot offolks hereseem to dislike). [:D]

The Clarinet would be replaced by a Krummhorn.

As far as the Sesquialtera, it really should be principal-scaled; whenever these are split into two ranks they should be called Twelfth and Seventeenth, or Quint (not Nasard) and Tierce(or Terz). A Tierce could either be wide (flutey) or narrow (principal-scaled) and here it would be the latter.

cosmicpanda

12-08-2008, 08:59 AM

I see. I suppose if it's a Baroque organ then the lack of expression shouldn't matter as Baroque music doesn't require it, and you probably wouldn't play much else on such an organ. Krummhorn, you say? Do these sound like the real krummhorns? I've heard these before, and they sound peculiar.*Would a sesquialtera work well if the rest of the upperwork, as in the organ I suggested, was flutey? I suppose it depends on the precise scaling of the sesquialtera in question.*

*

The university organ I mentioned before is a similar instrument, perhaps slightly different. In the Great it has, if I remember right, an 8' principal, *8' Rohrflute, 4' octave, 2' octave, and Mixtur III - V. In the Rugpositive it has an 8' stopped flute, 4' principal, 2' gemshorn, and the Sesquialtera II. In the Pedal it has a 16' Subbass, 8' Principal and 8' Trumpet. I didn't mind the lack of expression and could easily spend hours on it. I did mind the very limiting temperament which meant I couldn't play much Bach...

*

MenchenStimme, that looks like a great little organ! I notice you have a lot of couplers; do you use these much, especially for Baroque music? Is the 16' flute in the pedal stopped? Given that we were discussing 32' stops before, do you mind the absence of one?

Menschenstimme

12-08-2008, 04:59 PM

MenchenStimme, that looks like a great little organ! I notice you have a lot of couplers; do you use these much, especially for Baroque music? Is the 16' flute in the pedal stopped? Given that we were discussing 32' stops before, do you mind the absence of one?

Yes, thank you! It has worked out very well indeed. The only couplers I use consistently are the manual to pedal 8-foot couplers. Some of the other couplers I use for special purposes or somtimes for a climax at the end of a piece. The 16-8-4 flute rank is stopped except for the top two octaves.I do not miss having a 32 at home even though I enjoy the two 32s we have at church. What I really miss is a 16-foot principal on the pedal.

Cheers!

soubasse32

12-08-2008, 06:26 PM

I suppose if it's a Baroque organ then the lack of expression shouldn't matter as Baroque music doesn't require it, and you probably wouldn't play much else on such an organ. Krummhorn, you say? Do these sound like the real krummhorns? I've heard these before, and they sound peculiar.*Would a sesquialtera work well if the rest of the upperwork, as in the organ I suggested, was flutey? I suppose it depends on the precise scaling of the sesquialtera in question.*A swellbox*is not needed for*baroque music, or for practicing romantic works. *[edit: I should clarify that such a severe baroque organ is OK for practicing finger and pedaling technique in romantic works; but things like expression must of course be practiced on an organ with expression pedals!]

In the 'neo-baroque' era*(which saw the installation of*so many severe practice organs in universities)*it seems that some student organists never learned to use a swell shoe!* I'm currently helping several students through 'neo-baroque withdrawal' [:D] and am slowly introducing them to the*joys of being a well-rounded church organist.* [:)]* Once they overcome their terror of placing a foot on the expression shoe I*have them open and close the box! *The ultimate goal of my 'romantic organist bootcamp' is for them to be able to play a melody on the chimes without rolling their eyes in disgust.* [:p]

Yes I did say a Krummhorn.* On some organs these can be horrible, but every now & then I find one that is nice - they sound a little bit like the instrument of the same name.* I actually prefer the French Cromorne, which has a relatively fatter and louder tone.

A Sesquialtera would not work quite as well with flutey upperwork, but then I would not tend to use it with upperwork; I'd use it with the Principals 8 and 4, or with a flutey 8' stop for soloistic purposes.* I have a principal-scaled*Sesquialtera in my Swell division as well as a*2' Octavin (harmonic flute) - those work together surprisingly well.

bcollins

12-08-2008, 07:04 PM

In this live recording of my organ, you will hear (at the beginning) both Swell Quintadena and Great Krummhorn
Followed by Swell Copula Major and Krummhorn

http://zionorgan.com/Organs/Opus1/Tevenan-003.mp3

I happen to love the Quintadena - BTW.

bcollins

12-08-2008, 07:39 PM

This is the baroque organ at Zion Lutheran in Spokane. I submit to you only it's disposition, which has been reviewed favorably by local organists whom I highly respect. It's not a small organ, but I worked long and hard to design a well rounded and versatile spec. for both french and german baroque literature, but it goes well beyond that I have no idea what the cost would be to build with real pipes, as this is a Hauptwerk organ. Be kind (this is not intended to be a pitch for Hauptwerk, just a submittal of my organ's specifications)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>
GREAT<o:p></o:p>[/B]
Gedackt 16' <o:p></o:p>
Principal 8' (narrow scale)<o:p></o:p>
Rohrflute 8'<o:p></o:p>
Octave 4'<o:p></o:p>
Copula Minor 4'<o:p></o:p>
Quinta 2-2/3' (tin principal)<o:p></o:p>
Principal 2' (wood)<o:p></o:p>
Mixture III (2-2/3’)<o:p></o:p>
Trompette 8'<o:p></o:p>
Krummhorn 8'<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
SWELL<o:p></o:p>
Gamba 8' <o:p></o:p>
Celeste 8' (@6 cents sharp)<o:p></o:p>
Copula Major 8'<o:p></o:p>
Quintadena 8' <o:p></o:p>
Principal 4' (wood) <o:p></o:p>
Flauto 4' (wood)<o:p></o:p>
Nazard 2-2/3' (wood flute)<o:p></o:p>
Sifflote 2' <o:p></o:p>
Tierce 1-3/5' (wood principal)<o:p></o:p>
Quint 1-1/3' (tin principal)<o:p></o:p>
Cymbel II (tin 1' and 2/3')<o:p></o:p>
Fagotto 16'<o:p></o:p>
Hautbois 8'<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
PEDAL<o:p></o:p>
Subbass 16' (stopped wood flute)<o:p></o:p>
Gedackt 16' (GT)<o:p></o:p>
Violone 16' <o:p></o:p>
Octave 8' <o:p></o:p>
Gedackt 8' (SW)<o:p></o:p>
Choral Bass 4' <o:p></o:p>
Rauschpfeife III (wood principals at 2-2/3', 2', 1-1/3')<o:p></o:p>
Posaune 16' <o:p></o:p>
Trompete 8'

Perhaps cost prohibitive for a home, but some cost saving could be done with a little borrowing (Gedackt 16' and 8' in the Pedal) and unification (Copula Major and minor) and (Fagotto and Hautbois) and (Great and Swell Quints).</o:p>

cosmicpanda

12-26-2008, 02:36 AM

I can see that you have put a lot of work into that, very detailed.

*

What stopped you from putting a 16' Principal in the Pedal?*

steverequiem

12-29-2008, 05:27 PM

I am seriously late to this thread, so forgive me for the derailing. *But going back to the first page, with Austin's stoplist. *Many people noticed he didn't have a string with a matching celeste. *But what really intrigues me is that he's a big Holtkamp fan. *The first organ I ever played, and continued to play for 13 years was a 3-manual, 35 rank Holtkamp. *It had one string in the swell, but did not have a matching celeste. *And even that one Gamba seemed to be an afterthough. *When Holktamp put in the organ at Peabody, the inclusion of a string celeste was a pretty big deal. *What is it about Holtkamp + fans and string hate?

sesquialtera16

12-29-2008, 06:08 PM

I am seriously late to this thread, so forgive me for the derailing. But going back to the first page, with Austin's stoplist. Many people noticed he didn't have a string with a matching celeste. But what really intrigues me is that he's a big Holtkamp fan. The first organ I ever played, and continued to play for 13 years was a 3-manual, 35 rank Holtkamp. It had one string in the swell, but did not have a matching celeste. And even that one Gamba seemed to be an afterthough. When Holktamp put in the organ at Peabody, the inclusion of a string celeste was a pretty big deal. What is it about Holtkamp + fans and string hate?

I met George Bozeman at Trinity Church Wall St in the mid 80s as he was finishing the 1m tracker for the chapel. He mentioned an article upcoming in the American Organist wherein he would explain that Holtkamp modeled his concepts of organ reform around the work of Arp Schnitger whereas Donald Harrison followed more closely the work of the Silbermans.

In his recorded demo-lecture released by Aeolian-Skinner in the 50s on LP Harrison mentions that early organs were largely Principal and Flute tone as far as flue work. While that is not precisely so early organs did have some form of string sound in the viola da gamba stop. Bach wanted an organ revised removing a gemshorn and replacing it with a viola da gamba. Mind you any string tone hat far back would have little resemblence to modern string sound. Still it appears that Holtkamp kept the strings down to a minimum and for that matter they are broad and can sound like a soft geigen. Where a celeste is included it is voiced more along string-tone lines so that the two stops played together are a satisfactory combination where a celeste is called for in the repertoire.

Skinner loved strings and in 1910 he made a solo Gamba and celeste on 15'' wind with flared pipes--bigger at the top than at the mouth--the magnificent sound at St John The Divine now so nicely preserved and restored.In the choir there he has a skinny 2 rank Dulcet of 80/75 scale that are to die for.The strings at Yale are a phenomenon. Skinner has an entire section of orch and muted strings of various scales and design so that the tone is awesome--a signature sound if ever there was one.

Austin766

12-29-2008, 06:29 PM

Well, I certainly don't hate strings, real or pipe, and it would be quite odd if I did hate strings, since outside of the organ (and piano), I am a violist, lousy violinist (my hands are so big that violin is slightly more difficult than viola) and banjo. I suppose that some of the lack of strings comes from overexposure to a Martini (I am not exactly a Martini fan, but it beats most electronics). And now that you mention it, it does strike me that Holtkamps don't have a whole lot in the way of strings and celestes. The 3 manual, 60 rank, 42 stop Holtkamp of 1952 only has one string and its matching celeste, a gamba on the swell; the 1964 Holtkamp at Plymouth Congregational has a gamba and celeste on the swell and a spitzgamba on the positive and the 1983 Holtkamp tracker of slightly less than half the size of its big brother by 30 years, has but one string-a gemshorn-and no celeste, on the swell.

The lack of a string stop came from another lack, this time of thought. As I understand it, Walter Holtkamp Sr. was actually a fan of Skinner strings. In looking over my recorded stoplist of Holtkamp's 1954 rebuild of the Epworth Euclid UMC (aka Holy Oil Can...look for pictures of the church building and you'll see why its called the Holy Oil Can) Skinner, Holtkamp placed a Salicional with a stop labeled String Celeste (probably from Skinner) on the Swell and in the Pos-Ch division, he placed an 8' Erzahler and its Celeste (gee, I really wonder where that came from...). It would be interesting to be able to talk to Walter Holtkamp Sr. himself about his thoughts on the place of strings and their celestes in his organs, but since he's dead, and has been for a number of years, and since we don't have the technology to bring him back to life, it would be rather difficult to do so, but asking those questions of Chick (Walter Jr.) or of Chris (F. Christian) would be much easier, but I would tailor those quetsions to their own schemes, and perhaps their impressions of Walter Sr.'s work.

sesquialtera16

12-29-2008, 06:58 PM

I have met both Chic and Chris Holtkamp andI have studied their tonal schemes and played some of their organs. They have to some extent followed in the previous tradition of limited string voices. However where a client may request itI do believe they would accomodate a reasonable quantity of additional string-tone provided it remained within the context and tradition of their company.

soubasse32

12-30-2008, 02:39 AM

The McMyler Holtkamp (Cleveland Art Museum)has Gemshorns on the Greatand Pedal; the Swell has aGeigen, Gamba, and Celeste.Perhaps that is not surprising, considering the size of the instrument.

Quite a few neo-baroque instruments lack string stops - I think it was more of a knee-jerk reaction against the so-called "decadence" of romantic string stops. As Sesquialtera mentioned, there were indeed quite a variety of string stops to be found on original baroque organs.

Austin766

12-30-2008, 03:07 AM

How many of the museum's strings are from the original, original McMyler, by Skinner, and how many are of Holtkamp manufacture? I'm not sure that I'd call the McMylaer organ the very best representative of Holtkamp's work.

Cleveland's most important neo-baroque(n) organs, the Great organ by Flentrop at Trinity Cathedral, and the Beckerath at Trinity Lutheran, both have the single string in the swell (well, the Schwellwerk on the von Beckerath and the Bovenwerk on the Flentro), a Gamba from Flentrop and a Gemshoorn from von Beckerath. I consider these more neo-baroque than Holtkamp ever was. Don't take me wrong, Holtkamps are fantastic instruments, but they have not (to my knowledge) ever been as severely neo-baroque as some of the European firms, like Flentrop or von Beckerath.

And, as usual, Subby, you've probably hit the nail squarely on the head (or at least quite nearly) that the severe lack of strings was probably a knee-jerk reaction to the perceived excesses of the romantic/orchestral/symphonic organs. Just think where the Wanamaker organ would be if some of these neo-baroque enthusiasts had really been able to get their hands on it, just the thought of what could have been scares me.

steverequiem

12-30-2008, 02:10 PM

Only one pedal 16' flue rank on the Trinity Cathedral flentrop, as well as mechanical stop action...What a splendid, flexible instrument to support the musical needs of an Episcopal cathedral.

Austin766

12-30-2008, 03:04 PM

Especially when compared to Dr. Kraft's (now removed) Skinner at the Cathedral, the Flentrop is extremely flexible...something like that. It's a fine instrument, and fun to play, but its so...neo-baroque.

steverequiem

12-30-2008, 03:14 PM

So sad, where did the Skinner end up?

Austin766

12-30-2008, 04:15 PM

Don't know, there was a lengthy (and impassioned) discussion about it on this forum a couple years ago, I think that the discussion ended up as part of the thread on the M&O at Trinity Wall Street.

soubasse32

12-30-2008, 06:29 PM

Re: the Trinity Cathedral Skinner:according to the Aeolian-Skinner Archives "In 1977, the main chambers were sealed and, in 1998, the Skinner/Schantz was removed and parted out".

There is a lesson to be learned there, but even today nobody seems to have learnt it. [:(]

bcollins

12-30-2008, 07:02 PM

cosmicpanda,

Sorry I didn't get to your question till now, and this thread has taken a fork in the road since. But to answer your question, it was a bit that I only had three samples available to me that sounded remotely "baroque". I ended up deriving a 16' rank from what was originally an 8' Principal sampled from a 1587 Renaissance organ - which had a particularly "stringy" sound to it. I chose to call it a Violone.

That and the Gamba and Celeste really gave the organ a lot of flexibilty. I'm going to dig out a recording - and mind you, I made it using only my little ZOOM 2 handy digital recorder, with only it's internal microphones. So it's not the best recording, but it gives a little flavor of the organs ensemble.

The organist is Walt Kroon. And I'm looking for the file now... Ah, here are a couple:

http://zionorgan.com/zionlutheran/Kroon080331a.mp3
http://zionorgan.com/zionlutheran/kroon3a.mp3

And again I say, hopefully you have decent PC audio. Don't bother listening to these unless you have at least $100 invested in your PC speakers. Or a nice set of headphones will do, Sennheiser, Sony, etc. (you can always download them and burn them to CD, then play them on your home or car stereo)

sesquialtera16

12-30-2008, 07:10 PM

The Cleveland Schantz-Skinner was one that I had seen numerous times. The rumor has it that the chambers were sealed and the pipes removed to prohibit any possibility of restoration. The big tubas nad wood 32 reed were basement installed at the back of the space with a floor grille. A tale says Dr Kraft opened it all up and played a fanfare and a little old lady standing atop the grille took a coronary and went kaputski.

As for the Dutch organ in the back: in and of itself it is a fine recital organ if you fancy only the early music. As for any Anglican traditions or other repertoire it is probabaly credulity to suggest that it can be successfully performed.

Vercus

12-30-2008, 09:07 PM

Hello,

One thing to keep in mind is that some of these critiques are personal preferences. For example, I would rather like a pedal mixture, but I also prefer a more Germanic approach to organ building. So, while some things certainly carry a broader acceptance (for instance the strings suggestion), others are up to the organ builder. I always find it interesting seeing different people's ideas. You've got me inspired to draw up my own spec, which I will submit on a separate thread.


-Jon