Pedal scales

[Pipedreamer]

I've got a few questions on this. I'm sorry if some of my questions seem a bit basic, but I'm having trouble with some scales at the upper octave. My teacher is a baroque specialist, and I think that I need a bit more solid foundation in romantic pedal technique before tackling serious romantic pieces. Some backround: I am six foot four inches, reasonably heavy, and have a short torso and long legs. I have a bit of trouble finding a good balance point when moving up to the far upper reaches of the pedal board with both legs (right leg by itself is no problem).</p>

</p>

1. Is there a standardized set of pedal scale patterns like there is for the hands? If so, what is it?</p>

2. Is it better to play the scales with the feet by themslves or with one or both hands doing the scale as well?</p>

3. The scale series I'm using (out of the Stauffer/Ritchie book) has some problems for me at the upper parts. My left foot does not naturally reach far up into the c-g keys, and whenever I try to pivot, I feel forced to pivot my entire bodyweight on the foot that is currently depressing a key. I'm almost certain this isn't a good long-term solution, and probably isn't that healthy for the organ as well. Is there an easy way to pivot or practice pivoting so that I can do this? And to avoid possible injury?</p>

4. At the bottom part if I do repetitive left-foot work, especially pivoting on the heel, it tends to get tired and hurt. This doesn't happen with my right foot. Should I adjust the patterns to favor that leg? Does it just need more training? Should I ask a doctor?
</p>

</p>

Any and all responses are greatly appreciated!</p>

[Clarion]

I've got a few questions on this. I'm sorry if some of my questions seem a bit basic, but I'm having trouble with some scales at the upper octave. My teacher is a baroque specialist, and I think that I need a bit more solid foundation in romantic pedal technique before tackling serious romantic pieces. Some backround: I am six foot four inches, reasonably heavy, and have a short torso and long legs. I have a bit of trouble finding a good balance point when moving up to the far upper reaches of the pedal board with both legs (right leg by itself is no problem)</P>


So much for figuring that long legs would offer some benefit. I'm 5'8 with short legs, and for cross-over kind of stuff, they won't reach either! [:S] Other than my "Hannon for Feet" manual (forget the name) I've never run into aneed for iteither.</P>



1. Is there a standardized set of pedal scale patterns like there is for the hands? If so, what is it?</P>


2. Is it better to play the scales with the feet by themseves or with one or both hands doing the scale as well?</P>


I don't believe there is any kindof standardized set of pedal scale patterns. When it comes to pedals, not all that much has been written about optimum pedal technique; and what one person believes to be the best technique, may not correspond with what someone else adopts.It's over thirty years since I did thiskind of stuff,but I seem to recall that that patterns varied with the key. I looked for my practice book today, but I think it's been relegated to the non-useful archive bin. </P>


While a few might brand me as a heretic for saying this; all of those initial pedal exercises have little in common with the real world of playing the organ. Not that I'm suggesting that it's all useless; quite the contrary. After doing everything the hard way, then thereafter, doing it the normal, obvious, and perhaps sensibleway,is breeze!! [;)]</P>


As for the "hands-too" concept; when I started my organ studies waaay back; keyboards were totally off-limits for the firstthree months. For three whole agonizing months, all I did, was endless scales and arpeggios along witha bunch of other fancy dancing, hour-after-hour; day-after-day; week-after-week; month-after-month! [:'(]Was it worth it?? That's sort of like asking a mother if the pain of child birth was worth it!!</P>


It is now pretty muchcommonknowledge, thanks to research ofneuro-psychologists, that the brainactually re-wires itself, and develops new neural pathways in order to accomodate overloadofcontinuous externalstimuli. We now know that starting kids in music before age three, while the brain is still in developmental mode, offers benefits that can never be recovered in later years.</P>


Whatever happened tome during those three agonizing months of pedals-only, tends to run somewhat contrary to generally-accepted scientific parameters of "too-old", "too-late". The end result, was that my bottom half operates completely indepent of my top half; and seemingly without even thinking, the pedal stuff just happens to come out automatically. I don't even think about what my feet are doing. It seems that they already know what to do, without ever having to consult a higher power! </P>


Having dispensed with all the the silly toe-over-toe stuff all the way to the top of the pedalboard; I'm satisfied,that even if there was some sort of repertoire out there that demandedthose kind of gymnastics, I've yet to be confronted with anything ofthat kind. </P>


Bottom Line: In the absence of any credible evidenceto the contrary, I decided to do it my way!! The way itworksfor me . . . .</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>

[soubasse32]

Don't practice pedal excercises while playing the same thing in the manuals;you'llmake a habit that will make itdifficult to play each part independently.</P>


Regarding ergonomics - it sounds as if you may not have tried the "knees together" technique.</P>


Lots of folks in this particular forum will probably roll their eyes at this suggestion(we've debated it at great length)but it is a technique that I find very useful.</P>


Since you are not currently doing "knees together" and you are having problems,I think it is a valid suggestion. Whatever works, right?</P>


The theory of "knees together" is that you keep your knees together at all times, unless the pedal part dictates a wide interval between both feet.</P>


You have two pivot points - let's say the first one is your spine. When you play low or high notes, you rotate the lower half of your body towards the end of the keyboard you are playing.</P>


The second pivot point is around the midsection of your body. When you play low or high notes, your upper body may lean slightlyin the opposite direction(to counterbalance).</P>


With your knees together the lower half of your body stays compact, not flailing about. The result should be decisive, minimal, accurate, etc.</P>


You might have to raise the bench a bit in order for this technique to work.One drawback to being a long-legged organist is thatyou are more likely to hit your knees on the underside of the keydesk. Some consoles are better than others in this regard.</P>


So... try this, and let us know if it helped, or not.</P>

[Clarion]

4. At the bottom part if I do repetitive left-foot work, especially pivoting on the heel, it tends to get tired and hurt. This doesn't happen with my right foot. Should I adjust the patterns to favor that leg? Does it just need more training? Should I ask a doctor?
</P>


You don't mention where it hurts. And that's important.</P>


1. Like . . .if you experience discomfort at the back of your ankle, then your achilles (tendo calcaneus) tendon might need a little stretching.That can be best accomplished during warmup by doing squat-exercises. Basically, that involves keeping your feet flat on thefloor, and squatting straight down as low as you can go. Perhapsappropriately crafted organ shoes might also help.</P>


2. If the discomfort is being experienced at the front of your ankle, then you may be experiencing , then you may be experiencing irritation/inflammation of thecruciatum cruris ligament; the lower end equivalent of carpal tunnel syndrome. Not much you can do about that, other than reducing the irritation (not an option), or hoping that non-steroidal-anti-inflamatory drugs like aspirin will help. In days past, it was common to sumberge the offending limb in ice-water, in order to continue practicing.</P>


3. If the discomfort isbeing experienced in the ankle joint itself, then it might be a good idea totalk to your doctor about it.</P>

[Pipedreamer]

Thank you so much for your replies. I have tried the knees together technique with the pivoting and it works a lot better. I can do scales much easier. It's weird...I don't have that problem when I normally play, but I suppose that most organ pieces at my level don't really have the pedal parts go beyond a 13th or so.</p>

</p>

Also, I'm learning that using my own pedal scales, as long as I keep them standardized and don't change it going up and down, works really well. </p>

</p>

Also, thank you for the comment on the ankle pain. I'm afraid it's at the front...or the joint. I'll see today when I do it again. It only happens if I do excessive amounts of toe-hell pivoting with that foot over a period of a few minutes, most of the time it's just fine. If it is the joint, I'll definately see the doctor, and if not, I'll keep a bucket of ice water on hand.</p>

</p>

That'll make my teacher wonder what the heck I'm doing in her office [;)]</p>

[Clarion]

Out of curiosity, I got out one of my old organ training books: "The Organ", John Stainer (1840 - 1901) written in 1877. (The Gospel According to J. Stainer). </P>


"87. In playing scales on the pedals various methods of pedalling . . . are generally used separately, or in combination **as found most convenient** in each special case. Some scales are therefore pedalled entirely with "alternate toes", some with a mixture of "toe and the heel" and toes, and others entirely with "toes and heel".</P>


"70. As the student gains experience, he will find that the three systems are constantly mixed together. But as general principle, it may be stated that "toe and heel" is the easiest method of playing passages at the two extremes of the pedal-board (that is, passages which are very high or very low); while on the other hand, "toeing" is the easiest for passages in the central portion of the board."</P>


I sort of like his "as found most convenient" I-do-it-my-way approach; and rejection of any kind of standardized way of playing scales, in favour of do it the way that's best for you. </P>


Stainer doesn't subscribe to soubasse32's knees-together concept. In his humble opinion, knees should always be directly above the foot. I really don't understand soubasse32's knees-together thingy; or what advantage it might provide. I've given it a try, and all it does for me, is conjure up images of the 50's (or whenever) when women used to wear knee-length skirts that were tight at the knees. So I can't help resurrecting images from that era of women running around knock-kneed in ridiculous high-heeled shoes!! Doesn't mean soulbasse is wrong . . . about something that obviously works for him.</P>


When it comes to pedals, I tend to reject any kind of chiselled-in-stone concepts. Everyone is different; and what works for one, won't necessarily work for another. Organs are also different, and especially in the J Stainer era. What works on one organ doesn't necessarily work on another. </P>


Do your stint. If it works out as well for you as it did for me, you'll never again have to think about what is happening with your feet. And then after having explored your options, go with whatever works best for you.
</P>


As for the ice-pack idea, that's a far too abbreviated suggestion to be useful. Basically:</P>


1.Use ice packs to reduce swelling; </P>


2. Use heat to reduce inflamation, by increasing blood-flow;</P>


3. Use alternate heat and cold (20 minutes) to ascertain which you need, if not both.</P>


And then there's something Stainer mentions about maintaining a floppy limp ankle (the equivalent of a floppy limp wrist.): Hang loose!Tensing up and allowingthe ankle pivot tobecome stiff and rigid, is not necessarily the way to go!</P>