Least Preferred Drawbar

[Hammondlover]

What is your LEAST preferred drawbar?

[Hammondlover]

The 5 1/3 would have been my next choice. I find it muddles the sound a bit too much.

[NYCFarmboy]

agrees I almost never use that one* (5 1/3')

[james]

NYCFarmboy,</P>


I agree the 5 1/3' drawbar or Quint on other electronic organs sounds awful. However, you can use 88 8800 000 for a nice smooth Horn 16' or Tromba 16' for a "brass" solo on the Hammond.</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


Some on here don't care for the Larigot 1 1/3' drawbar, but it can add a "stringy" quality to the tone as well as give a brighter sound on the lower manual when using both manuals at the same time.</P>

[andyg]

I've opted for 1 1/3', though it's a vital part of the Hammond clarinet sound, 00 8080 840, the Novel Solo 07 0808 840 and plenty of the stringy and brassy voices.</P>


In short, you really can't compare the drawbars with similarly pitched stops, the fourier series synthesis method needs them all.</P>


Re quints: I like things like Tuba Horn 16, added to Tibia 16 and Tibia 5 1/3. Often have to do this with 8 and 2 2/3 stops, sub octave coupler plus unison off.</P>


Andy</P>

[Hammondlover]

I have never heard of the Larigot 11/3' (3 2/3'?). Is it off key from the fundimental like the 2 2/3", </P>


1 3/5", etc.? And who doesn't use the 4'?! You need that one to fill in the "empty space" between the upper and lowerharmonics.</P>

[andyg]

<DIV class=ForumReplyToPostArea>


I have never heard of the Larigot 11/3' (3 2/3'?). Is it off key from the fundimental like the 2 2/3",1 3/5" etc.?</P>


That's because it doesn't exist! It's a slight typo for 1 1/3'. [:S]</P>


There are a few more oddball pitches around. Roland put a 6 2/5' drawbar on their organs at one time. Don't think anyone used it at all! The preset Chime percussion on the T, E, H and R series has a 1 1/4' dissonant harmonic.</P>


On some theatre organs, you have what are sometimes called 'tricky couplers' at odd mutations, so if you couple a 5 1/3' stop at 1 3/5', you start to create really weird sounds. And the infamous 'Blackpool Sound', used by all the Tower Ballroom organists (over-used by some, and I'm most definitely not a fan) uses a 10th coupler to produce its unique sounds.</P>


Andy G</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P></DIV>

[james]

Hammondlover, and all,</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


Please excuse my typos. I am a mess at typing sometimes.</P>


Ok the 1 1/3' drawbar is the octave of the 2 2/3' which is the octave of the 5 1/3'</P>


I know about Hammond organs inside and out. I just can't work on them, and their parts, but know all about how they work.</P>


Each Hammond drawbar has a stop name. There is a list in all owner's manuals, such as the M-100 Series, the T100's 200's, etc.</P>


First Brown Drawbar: Bass or Bourdon 16'</P>


Second Brown Drawbar: Quint 5 1/3'</P>


First White Drawbar: Principal 8'</P>


Second White Drawbar: Ocatave 4'</P>


First Black Drawbar: Nazard 2 2/3'</P>


Third White Drawbar: Blockflote 2'</P>


Second Black Drawbar: Tierce 1 3/5'</P>


Third Black Drawbar: Larigot 1 1/3'</P>


Fourth White DrawbarSifflote1'</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


Now have any of you seen these stop names or pitch markingson other organs? </P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


The old Wurlitzer ES organs, and Gulbransen organs, and early Conn organs all have them.</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


Gulbransen Organs for the most part were flute organs such as Hammond, and used the same sounds although they had stop rocker tabs with the same pitches for their sound.</P>


Gulbransen Organs: Typical stop list</P>


Upper Manual:</P>


Bourdon 16'</P>


Tibia 8'</P>


Tibia 4'</P>


Nazard 2 2/3'</P>


Piccolo 2'</P>


Tierce 1 3/5'</P>


Fife 1'</P>


Quint 5 1/3'</P>


Diapason - preset stop using the first three stops. (Yes, a Diapason from three flute tones. Well, that is all that is available from the tone generatorsare the flute tones.)</P>


Clarinet- Using the 8' 2 2/3' 1 3/5'</P>


Oboe - Using 4' 2 2/3' 1 3/5'</P>


Glock - Using 16' 4' 13/5'</P>


Lower Manual:</P>


Flute 8'</P>


Flute 4'</P>


Nazard 2 2/3'</P>


Piccolo 2'</P>


Larigot 1 1/3'</P>


Fife 1'</P>


Pedals:</P>


Most often soft, medium, and Loud</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Wurlitzer ES organs, the basic stop list from their first Spinette Model 44 was patterned after this system too. It is basically all flute tones.</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Upper Manual:</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Bass 16'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Bassoon 16'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Soft Flute 8'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">French Horn 8'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Trumpet 8'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Orch. Flute 4'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Piccolo 2'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Tone Coloring 2 2/3'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Tone Coloring 1 3/5'</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>
<P mce_keep="true">Lower Manual:</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Bass Flute 16'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Horn 8'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Tenor Trumpet 8'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Accom. 8'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Flute 4'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Piccolo 2'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Fife 1'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Tone Coloring 2 2/3'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Tone Coloring 1 1/3'</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Pedals were Soft, Medium, and Loud.</P>


James</P>

[Hammondlover]

Actually, I think I just had, as we say in Rochester, a "Brain Fart." I misunderstood. I have seen these names many times, but never realized what they referred to other than pipe organs (still fairly new at this subject).

[Clavier]

I picked the 4' because it is the least pleasant sounding of the drawbars on my Yamaha. I would state my preference on a Hammond, but I don't play those often enough. Besides, the poll doesn't say anything about Hammonds.

[Hammondlover]

My experience is coming from a yamaha too (PSR 1500). Mine must sound different from yours. Theyamaha drawbar simulator can be tricky to work with (depending on your model).Specific registrations can sound totally different from aHammond or be on thebutton. Case in point: Whiterof pale. Registration for that is688600000,2nd percussion,long decay.Use that registration, and it doesn't sound remotely like the song. It's too thin and watery. You have to change those 6's to 8's, and then you'll be a little closer. But it is still hard to get that raspy growl you hear in the song. Overdrive is too much, turn the bass up in the equalizer and the speakers rattle to kingdom come.What modelyamaha do you have?</P>

[Clavier]

It's an E-70U.</p>

It looks like this:
</p>


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ratfink454/Picture053.jpg?t=1171739581</p>

</p>

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ratfink454/Picture040.jpg?t=1171739619</p>

</p>

My Motif has drawbars too. Thanks to the wide array of effects and filters, I can get almost an sound I want on it. </p>

[Orgrinder010]

<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>If I had to pick one that I could do without, it would be the Nazard (2-2/3'). Really, I like all the harmonics, and I wish there were more, but that one just seems to make every registration sound alike.*</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>On the other hand, I nearly always use the Quint (5-1/3'), as a 5th will always add some 'body' to the overall output.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>

[Hammondlover]

Here's what my drawbar interface looks like:</P>


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/338185968_41a72a7586.jpg?v=0</P>


And this one is for percussion, vibrato speed,and keyclick:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/126/338194948_3e59216758.jpg?v=0</P>

[Clavier]

That's pretty cool that the PSR comes with such an interface for organ in that price bracket.

[Hammondlover]

It's an upper scale PSR. The 1500 is right under the most expensive model in the PSR series- the 3000.

[jimmywilliams]

I have a Gulbransen, but I would also say the 5 1/3. In fact, it is so oftenunused that on the organ I purchased recently, the previous ownersimply had the 5 1/3 stop tab removed and put in place of the 8' tab, which had broke. (I've since replaced the broken stop tab and put the 5 1/3 back inplace.) I noticed that the 5 1/3 only sounds "right" if used with a 16' somewhere in the mix. If you are just using an 8' as the lowest pitch, it sounds very dischordant (at least to western music traditions that is). I assume with the drawbars you can adjust the levels of the 8' and the 5 1/3' to get a resultant 16' if you're into that sort of thing. On the Gulbransen flute-only instruments, the only way to get the lowest keyboard octave to sound in the 16' pitch is to add the 8' and 5 1/3' which gives you a resultant on the lowest octave (the resultant effect on the other octaves is irrelevant because the real 16' kicks in). I don't know if the Hammonds actually sound at 16' on the lowest KB octave. Do they?</P>


The 6 2/5 pitch mentioned in another posting on this thread is a "hidden" stop on the Gulbransens and is only used as the sub-third humtone on the Chimes preset (since the fundamental on the chimes is 4'). It actually makes the chimes sound farily realistic. If you have an organ with a 6 2/5, you can make a chime setting by using 6 2/5, 4, 2 2/3, and 2, along with the appropriate sustain/precussion effects. I guess the Hammonds don't have a 6 2/5 drawbar?</P>

[james]

jimmywiliams,</P>


No Hammond did not have a 6 2/5' drawbar or tone. It wouldn't do any good as they didnot have sustain as a result of the mechanical tonewheel system they used. Other organs could produce more effects with sustain percussion, and when Hammond went to other percussions other than the old harmonic 4' and 2 2/3' percussion, they had repeat percussion. They just could not make a sustain to use with the older tonewheel organs. It has beens said that Lowrey and Thomas pushed Hammond backfrom the MKT somewhat because they had realistic percussion sounds, such as Hawaiian Guitar, and good reeds, strings, etc.</P>


Gulbransen pushed the MKT with being the first with several great features, first piston on a spinet, Leslie speakers, chimes, realistic piano sound, and realistic tibia sounds. Wurlitzer was the first organ with sustain even on their old ES reed organs.</P>


Most of the Hammonds did not carry the 16' to the last octave on the Lower end of the KB. The R-100 Series did, and I think it was mentioned on here that the old E consoles did, but the E100, 200, 300 didn't either.</P>


If you want to make a Bassoon 16' on the drawbars, you might try 08 8000 000 or a Tromba 88 8800 000. I found very little use for the the 5 1/3' when I played Hammond so much. Jazz organists use this sound a lot in their music.</P>


What model Gulbransen do you have?</P>


Gulbransen are great sounding organs, and have a smooth touch to them. Their chimes are some of the best I ever heard. If you have a piano stop, it is the best ever, and the flutes are very clear and nice sounding. It is odd I have never owed a Gulbransen, but sold them at one time in a music store.</P>


For a flute organ, they sounded very nice especially with their dual speed Leslie.Being a former church organist,I would have enjoyed playing one in church.</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


James</P>

[jimmywilliams]

James (Tenor Trumpet 8'),</P>


Thanks for the info about the Hammond drawbar/tonewheelorgans. It is interesting to see that even amoung players of other organs the least-used pitches seem to be the same.</P>


Irepliedto the Gulbransen question on a new thread to keep this drawbar thread on topic:</P>


http://organforum.com/forums/thread/29497.aspx</P>

[james]

I will share this with you folks. The Evangelical churches if they use Hammond or any other organ will most often use the Nazard 2 2/3' in some of their playing, and some wouldn't be happy without it. For me, it has its uses, but it not that popular with me. I still say the Quint 5 1/3' is the one I am least likely to use. However, it can be used in forming other stop tones not avaiable on an organ by combining various stops to form a given tone.</P>


James</P>

[Hammondlover]

I find the 2-2/3' helps to give just a little bit more body (I'm also evangelical, but I don't play for a church), but not too much like the 5-1/3'. I tend to hug around the evens, and use the nazard to "fill in" where needed. For example: A registration I tend to stick to is 606504004. By itself this registration sounds fine. But pulling the nazard out to about 3 or 4 sounds fuller, if you know what I mean. I always thought that the Quint was placed in a strange location on the Hammond (perhaps this a carry-over from pipe organ practice?). I would put it after the 8'. In my logic (it can be a strange kind) the 16' and the 8' (for me) give the sound its bass (I'm not working with pedals). To put the quint before the fundimental would seem to denote it as a bass stop, of which it is a crummy one at that.

[Orgrinder010]

<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Am I the only one here who just grabs a handful and yanks them in and out until it sounds decent?*</DIV><DIV>Honestly, I change sounds so often thoughout playing, that I don't even stop to check what they are set at.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>

[andyg]

The 5 1/3 is where it is, because Hammond count it as part of the 'Sub' group, rather than 'Foundation' 8,4,2 2/3 and 2. The higher ones up to 1 are in the 'Brilliance' group. Their logic is that the 5 1/3 is the 3rd harmonic of the 16, and can't meaningfully be used without it. Try 08 8408 000 to see what I mean, a rather discordant sound. Hammond used it without the 16 in the 'Novel Solo' (E) preset in the H and X series - 08 8080 860 [??] I cant remember what the twomixture drawbars were set to.</P>


At Kawai I had a dilemma with the drawbars. Did I stamp my foot and insist that the 5 1/3 went before the 8, or go with the established Kawai practice of putting it after? We took a vote and left it where it was - after all, if you're following the 'dictionary' settings in the books, you just reverse drawbars #2 and #3!</P>


Andy</P>


PS - Nathan's got the right approach - don't look, just grab some! There's a neat trick you can try. Pull the 16' all the wayout to 8 and then use anything else on the other 8 bars; phone number, zip code, bank balance (Hold on - they don't work with negative numbers [:S]), whatever. It will be a usable sound. maybe not fantastic, but usable.</P>