electric action of pipes (speed question concerning leather/Wicks direct electric action)

[NYCFarmboy]

Hi folks:


I'm starting to ponder releathering the Reuter 822 pipe organ. It is original with the as built leathers in 1948.


should I just releather or would it be a option to consider the Wicks direct electric action?


I'm especially keen to keep the ultra quick action of the Reuter as evidenced by this sample recording of Vivaldi which highlights a orchestral work that keys the pipes faster than a human could play at times (well at least me):

[/b]
http://www.reuter822.com/demovivaldispring.html

Thoughts on the speed of the Wicks action versus leather?

[Menschenstimme]

Well . . . I have an electric action organ at home and we had a Wicks in the church until we installed our rebuilt 1973 Schantz III/72. We faced the same question when installing the Schantz but elected to releather the excellent Schantz pitman chests (along with a few offset and unit chests) rather than convert to all-electric action. The professional releathering cost half of what the all-electric conversion would have cost and preserved the original integrity of the Schantz design. Also, the change in action would have required major revoicing instead oftonal refinishing. (I realize that these terms may be vague, but I know not how else to explain the situation.)I should mention that the Schantz was still fully functional; we decided to releather while it was disassembled rather than waiting another 10-20 years and dealing with it then.</P>


I am delighted with the action and the "feel" and the speech of the Schantz pitman chests; and they are as fast as anything else out there. They just seem more "musical." My electric action organ at home is on all solid-state drivers and I perceive that it is smoother than the 1970 Wicks that was in the church which was literally direct-electric without any solid-state componentsbetween the keys and the valves.</P>


Then, of course, we have the question of durability--but let's not go there now . . .</P>

[FrenchHorn8]

Releathering will be 100 times cheaper if you do it yourself, and
you'll keep the historical integrity of the organ. If I took out
all the "E-P ness"[8-)] from my chests I'm sure I would regret it, as
the organ wouldn't be original anymore.

[NYCFarmboy]

great stuff to know, thanks!

[al]

Releathering is fun. I spent 4 hours last night doing the pouches on a Moller chest. Fish glue is a lot easier to use, but I use Hot glue for the channel seals. I would always choose EP if possible.

[KleinErzahler]

Hello...

Just a few points...

As far as speed is concerned, a flexible piece of leather with a valve button attached has very little mass or inertia to it. There really isn't anything much faster than what you have. It is also an efficient means of control as it takes advantage of a resource which you have in plenty - organ wind.

If you did go the E-M route you would be looking at more current draw, so you might need a larger rectifier and perhaps your switching would need to be re-configured to drive larger magnets - if it has such settings.

In an intimate space such as your house, you might even get a little bit of extra action noise from the E-M valves as well.

I think at the end of the day the cost of re-engineering the instrument vs. just releathering the organ as-is will favor keeping things the way they are. The leather available today is good stuff and should make the organ run for another 50-60 years no sweat.

Removing the bottom boards would also present you with an opportunity to rewire them to new or existing union boards - which would make it easier to move in the future.

- Nate

[Don Furr]

I'm with the majority on this one. If the chest are EP, I would not hesitate to re-leather and keep the action the way it is. If you change it you can figure an average of just over $5.00 each for the DE action so a little over $300 per rank. If you use a solid copper strap for your ground side you'll also have to buy a roll of that. (not cheap). Then you will have to line up, drill pilot holes and put two screws in each magnet.
When I bought my organ it was 99% DE action so as I added ranks I kept it that way. There is a little noise in some of the valves but it doesn't bother me. As far as speed is concerned, I promise you my DE action will play faster than I can play!!! I mean, really, how fast do you NEED to play? I put a 50 amp supply on my 18 ranks and I still have head room with all those DE's flopping around. Don't change your action if there is no compelling reason to do so. Of course this is my opinion.

[NYCFarmboy]

for my slow horrid playing a tracker would be fine,

but I primarily use my pipe organ at home to record on using a laptop computer to sequence the organ (playing the pipes via Syndyne midi wiring) and I've been playing with orchestral scores which have instrumentental music that has note lines that are much faster than what most if not any organists can play.... I have to say I'm kinda shocked at how fast the Reuter can play with the computer operating it.. so fast that one would think it would just spontaneously catch on fire but it seems to work just fine.

My question I guess was would a Wicks direct electric action be as fast as a EP action?

After reading all the posts I'm definately staying with the leathers but my curiousity is still whether a direct electric action is as fast as a EP?

[Don Furr]

for my slow horrid playing a tracker would be fine,

but I primarily use my pipe organ at home to record on using a laptop computer to sequence the organ (playing the pipes via Syndyne midi wiring) and I've been playing with orchestral scores which have instrumentental music that has note lines that are much faster than what most if not any organists can play.... I have to say I'm kinda shocked at how fast the Reuter can play with the computer operating it.. so fast that one would think it would just spontaneously catch on fire but it seems to work just fine.

My question I guess was would a Wicks direct electric action be as fast as a EP action?

After reading all the posts I'm definately staying with the leathers but my curiousity is still whether a direct electric action is as fast as a EP?
All I can say is that both EP and DE can speak faster than I need to play. Using a computer to play.......I don't know. That's a really good question!!

[al]

For speed, one needs fast speaking pipes and that is related to pressure; An organ operating at say 10" wp needs to use EP valves (Wicks exception). It takes quite a bit or energy to open the valve against the wind backpressure. Wurlitzer uses a 2 stage EP with pivoting pallet valves. This allows a very small magnet and armeture with little inertia. It also means susceptability to dust and dirt. Wurlitzers are well known for their tendency to cypher, especially during concerts. I think the speed is more related to pipe speech than actual valve speed. Generally one doesnt use DE above4 or so inches. Besides Wicks, are there any exceptions??</P>


</P>

[KleinErzahler]

There is a very nice article about this very subject in the most recent issue of the Journal of American Organ-building which is published by the AIO which I highly recommend.

- Nathan