Vox Humana in classical organs

[solotibiaclausa]

Heres an age old question...should the Vox Humana be included in modern classical organs? I thinkit should be because they sound beautiful with strings and a light tremolo with the swell shades closed. </P>


Your view on this matter?</P>

[steverequiem]

Absolutely. We're planning to have two Vox Humanas in our Ethereal division.

[soubasse32]

Thenew organ here has a Voix Humaine. Perhaps not as sweet as the American type, but itwill be quiteeffective - and appropriate for lots and lots of literature.</P>


I say "will be", because the tremulants are not working yet!</P>


I just hope I can convince the builder to make the reed chest tremulant fast enough. [:)] Unfortunately, it has to be at the speed that works best for the Hautbois.</P>

[Don Furr]

Well, I'm replacing my swell 4' clarion with a Vox. Since that division already had a 8' Trompette, the Clarion was just TOO much in the organ room. I'm going on the belief that the Vox will open up lots of possibilities that the 4' couldn't provide. On my organ I have only one trem so the Vox in the swell and the Clarinet in the choir will HAVE to share the same speed. This will be insteresting!!!

Don

[odellorgans]

We're doing a rebuild project next year on a two manual and will be keeping the Vox in the Swell. SO much more useful than a 4' reed...

[back52887]

&gt; On my organ I have only one trem so the Vox in the swell and the Clarinet in the choir will HAVE to share the same speed. This will be insteresting!!! &lt;
</P>


I have never seen it on the pipe organs I know, so I suppose there must be a reason for it, but is there not a possible method to adjust tremelo depth or speed from the console? Has anyone tried it and found it impractical? If it would work, that would solve Don's vox vs clarinet problem.</P>


A vox humana is such a beautiful and uniquie organ sound that I feel like one should be included in the most basic specifications: and with the tremelo off, it can be a usable chorus reed, as good as a clarinet or chromhorne in the Great</P>


Robert Hope-Jones built separate chests and expression chambers for his Voxes in the early 1900s, even before high pressure Tibias, and Wurlitzer bought him out. I played a H-J unit orchestra in an elks club with big Vox and no tibia.</P>


Lee</P>

[soubasse32]

<FONT face=Verdana>Tremulants adjustable from the console do exist, but the cost and complexity make these rather uncommon.</FONT></P>


<FONT face=Verdana>I'm not sure about using a Vox Humana as a 'chorus reed' though. The term 'chorus reed' usually implies the louder stops, such as trumpets, bombardes, clarions, tubas, etc.</FONT></P>


<FONT face=Verdana>Vox Humanaeare usuallythe first reeds to go out of tune, so the tremulant - in addition to adding charm and warmth - helps maskthe inevitabletuning anomalies.</FONT></P>


<FONT face=Verdana>Classical works that require a Vox Humana sans tremulant are rare; I can think of only a few:thesecond Rhapsodie bretonby Saint-Saëns and Jehan Alain's Trois Danses. There must be some more (from the 20th century especially), but those are the only ones that come to mind at the moment!</FONT></P>


<FONT face=Verdana>You can effectively use the Vox Humana without tremulant for very early music (for example, Renaissance music) - just be aware that the voicing of a modern Vox is pretty far from the antique examples.</FONT></P>

[Don Furr]

My Vox is coming off of a "lower" pressure Schlicker. I'm thinking it's most likely on 3-4 inches. I'm just hoping it's not going to be to loud for the room. My 8' Trompette (3") is a bit too much already. I've never been able to listen to a stop in a large room and determine if it's going to sound "right" in a much smaller room!!! Does anyone have that talent?

Don

[diaphone32]

Why shouldn't we have Vox Humana's in classical organs? It's a lovely stop.

[soubasse32]

Well, it's positively required in French romantic music!</P>


I've had lots of experience trying to work around the absence of one - not fun...</P>

[tumult_in_the_praetorium]

Well, it's positively required in French romantic music!</P>


I've had lots of experience trying to work around the absence of one - not fun...</P>


</P>


Oh indeed! Who could imagine Franck without a voix humaine?! Unthinkable...as well as some of Lefebure-Wely. </P>

[tumult_in_the_praetorium]

Well, it's positively required in French romantic music!</P>


I've had lots of experience trying to work around the absence of one - not fun...</P>


</P>


Oh indeed! Who could imagine Franck without a voix humaine?! Unthinkable...as well as some of Lefebure-Wely. </P>

[solotibiaclausa]

Are they better on their own reservoir and tremulant?

[diapason8]

I did some deputizing on an organ with a Vox Humana. The regular organist (a contemporary and friend of Percy Whitlock, BTW) referred to it as the 'bagpipes'. I though it sounded appropriate to accompany the verse in the Psalms about 'the owl that is in the desert'. Mind you, it was a VERY poor example of its genre.

Nigel

[soubasse32]

<FONT face=Verdana size=2>I'm trying to recall whoonce referred to a particularly bad example of a Vox Humana as soundinglike a 90-year old Frenchtenor with a cold!</FONT></P>


<FONT face=Verdana size=2>When faced with the lack of a Vox Humana for Franck, I resorted to playing the Viola Celeste (without the Viola) with the supercoupler (to add some sheen to the tone), plusa tremolo that had been sped up just for the occasion. Oh well, I was desperate!</FONT></P>



Are they better on their own reservoir and tremulant?</P>


<FONT face=Verdana size=2>A Vox can be on its own chest, in its own box with its own tremolo. Then it is a "Vox in a Box"! Paradoxically, a Vox can do quite well on higher pressure than you might think. If the pressure is too low ...well, you might start thinking about French tenors. [;)]</FONT></P>

[tumult_in_the_praetorium]

Yes. I don't actually have a Vox Humana at my disposal - have to make do with Voix Celestes for Franck. In fact, I don't even think there is a single example of this stop anywhere on the Maltese islands.

[back52887]

&gt;Why shouldn't we have Vox Humana's in classical organs? It's a lovely stop &lt;</P>


The whole thing of Voces Humanae going out of fashon is another misguided legacy of the Baroque Revival. The notion of romantic music with orchestral voicing, sobbing tibias, and high pressure stops was just too crass and plebian for the purist's cold heart. Well, they ran things for a while, and the audiences went away. In this more eclectic age, we are struggling to get them back with creative registration rather than historic finger techniques.</P>


For my uses, "chorus reed" means one that blends in well with other choruses of stops, whether loud or soft, as contrasted with "solo reeds" which do not. Thus I couple my untremed swell vox to the great principal 8',4',&amp;2' to form a quieter full organ sound, just as I would a clarinet/krumhorn and Isave the trumpet for the fuller plenum with mixtures and cornet fractionals.</P>


Lee</P>

[JPSmith]

&gt;Why shouldn't we have Vox Humana's in classical organs? It's a lovely stop &lt;</P>


The whole thing of Voces Humanae going out of fashon is another misguided legacy of the Baroque Revival. </P>


Quite right. In fact, the Vox Humana was a fairly common stop in REAL baroque organs.....lots of Schnitgers and Silbermanns have 'em. </P>

[sesquialtera16]

The USA organ builders had reached a point say in the 60's where internal memo to sales reps indicated that officially the Vox Humana was being written out of specifications for new work unless specifically requested by the client. This attitude that prevailed then was owing to trends where new Swell sections had a common 2 or 3 reed member formula.</P>


</P>


The first was the 8-4 combo......trompette 8 and hautbois 4.....</P>


the second was a little better.....fagotto 16.....trompette 8.....hautbois 4</P>


a later development was fagot 16.....trompette 8.....rohrschalmei 4.....</P>


As to organ literature it appears that some organs really didn't have that in mind.</P>


</P>


A compromise was....Fagot 16-8 unit 73 notes.....</P>


trompette 8.....rohrschalmei 4</P>


</P>


At least in the above we note some respect paid to the need for an 8' oboe of sorts for organ lit requiring such.</P>


It would be a while before the poor littleharmless vox in a or out of a box would find its way back</P>

[ReedGuy]

Vox Humana is a lovely stop. Sadly, I have not encountered this one often. I had heard that this is the only stop on the organ to survive in it's original form, although I am not sure if this is completely accurate. </P>


I agree with back52887 about "getting them back with creative registrations." People need to know how exciting the organ can be and what a wonderful pallette of sounds we have at our disposal. </P>

[AllanP]

My organ has only two reeds, a trumpet and a vox humana. I find the vox (without trem.) makes a nice pseudo-baroque short resonator reed to add a little color to registrations as suggested above like the 8', 4' diapason and vox 8'. The only problem is the vox is the stop that has the least stable tuning so that occasional notes will celeste with the rest of the organ. The vox is also valuable when used in combination with the strings to get a fuller string chorus effect.

With only two reeds, the vox on my organ gets used a lot, mostly with tremulant buts sometimes without depending on the musical effect desired. It adds a lot of color to the organ sound.

[KleinErzahler]

The organ that is to be installed in my Church has a Swell Vox on its own chest, and will be installed with its own regulator and tremolo so as to make it a bit deeper/faster than the main chest trem for added character. (C:

- N

[Manum de Tabula]

Alexander Schreiner used to call it "Hux Vomica" alluding to it often being over used.

<p class="MsoNormal">However, it is a beautiful sound and very much missed if not
included on a classical organ.</p>

[sesquialtera16]

Alexander Schreiner used to call it "Hux Vomica" alluding to it often being over used.
<P class=MsoNormal>However, it is a beautiful sound and very much missed if not included on a classical organ.</P>


</P>


</P>


When the Tabernacle organ was built in 1948 it had in the Swell a </P>


Voix Humaine 8 and in the AntiphonalI believe there was a </P>


Vox Humana 8</P>


The total number of ranks was 188.</P>


In 1969 I entered the doors of St Thomas' Church at Fifth and 53rd in Manhattan and heard a magnificent pipe organ sound and asI approached the chancel the Bombarde 32 came on and wow--I was "born again" to the great pipe organ. The recitalist then practicing said that organ , an Aeolian-Skinner/Adams had at one time 188 ranks.</P>


At some point the Tabernacle organ suddenly had 189 ranks!</P>


What had happened?</P>


The previous organ was a 1916 Austin with portions of earlier pipe-work included. The 1900 Kimball evidently had a gorgeous Vox Humana 8 in it that was retained till 1948 when the old tabernacle organ was relocated presumably to another space in an Assembly Hall somewhere possibly at Bringham Young University or maybe elsewhere.</P>


</P>


It was none other than Dr. Schreiner himself who asked Aeolian-Skinner to build a vox chest and fetch that gorgeous Kimball Vox. That was done and a knob engraved "Melos Anthropon"- a curious name never before seen or heard of till Fred Swann dubbed the "Anthropoglossai" name--these plus Menschenstimme are all vox humanas --2 in Greek and 1 in German.</P>


</P>


As to over-use at the Tabernacle judge for yourselves but Tabernacle organist Frank Asper was from the Symphonic School of organ performance and he used the Kimball Vox a LOT!-tastefully I might add.</P>

[Don Furr]

<font face="Verdana">Tremulants adjustable from the console do exist, but the cost and complexity make these rather uncommon.</font></p>


<font face="Verdana">I'm not sure about using a Vox Humana as a 'chorus reed' though. The term 'chorus reed' usually implies the louder stops, such as trumpets, bombardes, clarions, tubas, etc.</font></p>


<font face="Verdana">Vox Humanaeare usuallythe first reeds to go out of tune, so the tremulant - in addition to adding charm and warmth - helps maskthe inevitabletuning anomalies.</font></p>


<font face="Verdana">Classical works that require a Vox Humana sans tremulant are rare; I can think of only a few:thesecond Rhapsodie bretonby Saint-Saëns and Jehan Alain's Trois Danses. There must be some more (from the 20th century especially), but those are the only ones that come to mind at the moment!</font></p>


<font face="Verdana">You can effectively use the Vox Humana without tremulant for very early music (for example, Renaissance music) - just be aware that the voicing of a modern Vox is pretty far from the antique examples.</font></p>
Soubasse32,
You statment about....."Vox Humanae are usually the first reeds to go out of tune....." is RIGHT on the money. May I add....."also the hardest reed I've tuned yet...." They have been a real bitch for me to keep them stablized. I'm hoping they settle down. If not I've done a ton of work for nothing!!!![:@]

[clarabella]

In france we often tune it with tremulant : if one note is not easy for tuning, voicing had to be making again ; tunedon't havetochange with tremulant.</P>


Here, before 1850 all organs got one ; after this date, first hautbois, then trompette, clairon, ...and only in large instrument : voix humaine.</P>


Vox humana is quite different from voix humaine, no ?</P>


In theater organ it's often the only reed, isn't it ?</P>


(With my poor english, do you preferI write in french?)</P>


Regards</P>


F.</P>

[Orgrinder010]

Thats interesting you tune it with the tremulant on. I think I've heard this being done before in theatre organs, but never considered it on a classical.

And your english is just fine, by the way. I'm always so surprised on here when so many people of forign countries speak (type) english so well. Americans have a lot to learn.

[soubasse32]

Welcome Clarabella - it will be nice to get the French perspective on organ issues! [:)]</P>


Don, did you notice your Vox was more stable before you dismantled and cleaned it? I'm wondering if you might have changed the curve on some of those tongues during the polishing process.</P>

[Don Furr]

Soubasse32 that's kinda hard to say. I played the stop while it was still installed in the big Schlicker and it sounded just o.k.. Nothing really special. I was really careful not to reshape the tongues but that's a possibility. I've got my voicer coming over next week to take a look. He is the same guy to fixed my Clarinet. After playing it again this morning it seems a little more stable. Maybe it was the Merlot last night[:)]

[solotibiaclausa]

Hi Clarabella,</P>


The vox humana usually isnt the only reed in a theatre organ except with in one about 3 ranks orless.A small 4 rank "Style B" Wurlitzer had a trumpet-string-flute-vox. Us theatre organ people don't tune with the Tremulants on. Its hard to get a definate pitch of the pipe. I've heard of it doneand am sure it isVERY difficult.</P>


I believe a Voix Humaine is voiced as in French tradition and the Vox Humana is more Romanticly voiced if I'm not wrong?</P>


I have heard a contrast of the 2 in a classical organ and the French style voiced Voix Humaine is much more better sounding.</P>

[clarabella]

If it's difficult, it'svoicing not to be well. I personnally tune several in cavaille-coll and it's not a problem.</P>


Why to make like that ? Two reasons :</P>


Except in "trois danses" de Jehan Alain, all romantics french composers use "voix humaine" with tremulant.</P>


LikeI already say, you can hear smallest default in voicing immediatly with tremulant and it's not the case without. You make tuning and one day later, organist call you :" ma voix humaine est désaccordée" ; real tuning, it's not only shock springs but controlling voicing too.</P>


Regards F.</P>

[Don Furr]

I'm confused. Isn't the Voix Humaine just the French name for the Vox Humana? Is the construction different between the two or just the way they are voiced??

[clarabella]

I hoped you told me what !</P>


F.</P>

[Menschenstimme]

Hi Don,</P>


I believe you to be quite correct: Vox Humana and Voix Humaine are the same construction (along with Menschenstimme) and may or may not be voiced differently. I am sure that strictly speaking a Voix Humaine is the more French version of the stop and voiced accordingly. Menschenstimme is the more German verison and Vox Humana would probably be the more generic version. However, I do not pretend to know exactly what I mean by what I have just said.</P>


When we did our organ project at church where I am assistant organist and curator, the music director asked for a Voix Humaine on the Swell. We ended up with a vintage Vox Humana planted in the Choir and labeled "Menschenstimme." We were all happy with it. We became even happier after we provided it with its own regulator to raise the wind from 3-1/2" to 5" and its own tremulant.</P>


Good luck getting yours to settle down!</P>

[soubasse32]

Same construction? It all depends on how you define "same".</P>


In a Vox, all of these can vary:</P>


Shallot open/closed, tapered/straight; resonator tops domed or capped; tops which lift up (Spanish style), or twist to open voicing holes. The tongues may be different thicknesses, the pipe material of differing amounts of lead/tin, and the wind pressures can vary greatly. Voicing of course can differ, butwould be within theconfines of each construction style.</P>


The only thingin commonamongst the various types of Vox Humanae would be the cylindrical, short-length resonator. [:)]</P>