Young Organists

[open_diapason]

Im a 17-year-old organist playing for services, wedding funerals etc. in South Wales (UK). I started playing the organ about 3 years ago (I had some keyboard experience before hand) and taught my self from books and by speaking to other organists who visited the church about stop control, pedalling technique etc.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>


There are not many young organists out there and I think more should be done to encourage younger organists. If there are any organists out there who are learning to play the organ here are some books that I have found useful:<o:p></o:p></P>


<o:p></o:p></P>


1. Novello's Music Primers - No.3 The Organ - J. Stainer - ISBN 0-85360-182-8<o:p></o:p></P>


2. Organ showpieces made playable (Book 1)-arr. Colin Hand-ISBN 0-78663-176-7<o:p></o:p></P>


3. Organ showpieces made playable (Book 2) - arr. Colin Hand - ISBN 0-86209-976-5<o:p></o:p></P>


4. The Essential Organist - Kevin Mayhew Publishers - ISBN 0-88209-494-1<o:p></o:p></P>


<o:p></o:p></P>


Also, The RSCM has scholarship Schemes for organists (they paid for 50% of lesson cost for a year for me)<o:p></o:p></P>


I look forward to hearing from any young organists or anyone who has views on this topic.<o:p></o:p></P>


Cheers,<o:p></o:p></P>


<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Open_Diapason</SPAN></P>

[diapason8]

As a 'old' organist (50 and been playing for 31 years), i agree that we need to do everything possible to encourage new members into the profession. It's good to hear of yourself, doing a regular church job, and, from some of your other posts, both enjoying it and finding some of the pitfalls of a 'rural' organ. A bit of advice, if I may: Take every opportunity to play as many organs - good and bad, large and small - as you can, and hear as many organists play, both for services and recitals. Pick people's brains, and use the resource of this and other forums (or should that be 'fora'?) A useful, but much smaller forum in the UK is www.churchmusic.org.uk

If you are ever in the Somerset area and want to try my church, let me know. From July, I'll have moved and be playing an 1863 2-manual & pedal by Thomas Robson (he of Flight & Robson fame'.

Oh, and I like your sign off - but have you seen the 'Cassock Pocket Book' published years ago by RSCM. It's ESSENTIAL sermon reading!

Regards,

Nigel

[soundboarddude]

I agree entirely, Nigel. Play as many organs as possible. It will give you a good idea of what you like an organ to sound like, and will challenge you to make the organ sound the best that it possibly can, especially if it's a bad instrument. Go hear recitals by professional organists (even the bad ones); it can give you fresh new registration ideas and will help expand your repertoire by allowing you to hear more literature! You can also hearthat organist's opinions of howthe music ought to be played.If nothing else, it will help put your name out in the organ world (especially helpful if you go hear a recital nearby and meet people there).</P>


I will always recommend Dr. Jone's method book, "The King of Instruments." It has a number of simple pieces in it, and helps with general registration, technique, and even basic hymn playing. It's published by MorningStar: http://www.morningstarmusic.com/books.htm</P>


Best,</P>


sbd</P>

[Havoc]

Another book I liked is "Organ Technique, modern and early" by G.H. Ritchie and G.B. Stauffer Oxford University Press ISBN 0-19-513745-0

It talks about romantic and baroque practise, history, organ types, composers, repertoire, registration, gives some study material and excercises.

But I remain convinced that books cannot replace a teacher.

[soundboarddude]

But I remain convinced that books cannot replace a teacher. </P>


Agreed!</P>


Also, if you're willing to fork out some money, the Gleason method book is always a good one...</P>

[IndianaBill]

A few weeks agoat the local AGO Festival and Installation Service, several students from thelocal universityplayed. I was completely impressed with all of them. I talked with the young man who played the Finale from Symphony #1, and he told me he had only been taking lessons for about 3 years. He credited his teacher with his success. I am assuming he had some piano training before hand as his playing was superb.</P>


I don't know if I'm permitted to name names in the forum, and even if I am allowed, I don't know if it's the correct thing to dowithout their permission even though my remarks are totally complimentary.</P>

[ReedGuy]

I am a young organist myself, though not as young as Open Diapason. We definitely need to find creative ways to promote the magnificent instrument. My first organ book was also Satiner's "The Organ," and it was a good one. The other booksI was started on were "The Progressive Organist" by C. H. Trevor which has several books each at a different grade level, and Bach's Eight Short Preludes and Fugues. </P>


Now I play Franck, Guilmant, more Bach, etc. and I love them all!</P>


I agree with the advice of others. Play as many organs as you can, keep practicing regularly and faithfully, do finger and pedal exercises every day if you can, and find a good teacher. Also start thinking about being an Assistant Organist somewhere, and then eventually as you get more training and experience the Organist/Music Director. There's always room for improvement and growth regardless of what level you are - novice or virtuoso. There's also scholarships out there, some of them unclaimed for study towards diplomas and degrees. Seek them out! </P>

[NYCFarmboy]

a interesting article on high school organs:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060514/NEWS06/605140696/1008

I wonder how many high schools in the US (or anywhere) have pipe organs?

I know of a Wurlitzer in a high school in my area that I'm going to be photographing (its not playable since the late 60's), should be interesting...maybe someday some students will get interested in restoring it.

and another highschool getting a historic organ :

http://www2.townonline.com/boxford/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=504690

[diapason8]

In the UK, it is rare, but not unknown for a state school to have an organ. On the other hand, most private schools have very good organs. Here, in Taunton, Somerset, King's College have a modern tracker-action Walker, Queen's College have another good 2-manual (I can't remember the builder) Taunton School have an Osmond (local Taunton builder - althought they are, apparently considering installing a Copeman Hart in it's place) and Wellington School have just removed another Osmond and installed a Rodgers. there are a few, but unfortunately not many, students learning the organ at these schools.

Nigel

[FrenchHorn8]

That first article about the organ at Interlochen was actually in the local newspaper here a few weeks back along with a large color picture of the facade and console. I was surprised but very happy to see it.

I was going to build a 1 manual/pedal/2 rank for my high school, but I just didn't have the time. I got all the parts I needed, but unfortunately it just didn't happen. Maybe someday.

[Moller4/79]

I am a young organist, and have played several times for my church on its mighty 79 rank Moller pipe organ. I am CERTAINLY not the greatest young organist, but I think I can hold my own. I started with Gleason (yawn), and then went to the 8 Little Preludes and Fugues. I can still play the Prelude and Fugue in C Major from memory perfectly. I have also played Marcello's Psalm XIX, Clarke's Trumpet Voluntary, and soon, Handel's immortal Hornpipe. I have also learned several hymns. The biggest things I struggle with are practicing perfectly. I tend to want to go too far, too fast and nothing gets done. </P>

[FrenchHorn8]

The biggest things I struggle with are practicing perfectly. I tend to want to go too far, too fast and nothing gets done. </P>

I'm the same way. I always rush and try to do too much in a little time. My metronome helps me when I'm in the right mood to actually want to use it.

I don't think there's such a thing as "perfect practice", as everyone has a different style of practice. It's just finding the way that's best for you.

[joejet]

Now that is indeed true, that thing about wanting to practice too many
things in one rehearsal. I sometimes force myself to do the exact
opposite - to work on perhaps no more than 4 or 5 measures of a piece I
think I know well, instead of just, you know, playing it more or less
perfectly through every time once "learned". I'm sure it's rewarding.

[BPC_orgelspiele]

Hey-</P>


I am 17 also, from the United States, and I have to agree that very little is happening in the young organ world. It's a shame too. </P>


I learned a good deal on my own, because I am very, very, very, very (did I mention very?) independent, and I don't like the idea of being told to play just a couple of things from a single beginner's book. So, I thought, who is better suited to teach me in the way easiest for me than myself? </P>


I learned organ on an Estey reed organ in a friends house. It is a full 2MP, so it was a good place to start. The same guy got me permission to play on the organ at the church up the road from our house, so I get to play that one on a regular basis. A small church, based on a Welsh cathedral, finally hired me two years ago to play for them. </P>


I have very few books of music, because I have managed to always locate free music. Little bits here and there. I play a lot of Bach, because it's very interesting and technical, and I enjoy playing it. I am also on a French kick right now, and I have a couple of Vierne things, and Dupre's "Cortege et Litanie." </P>


What is your skill level, Open_Diapason? (What's the hardest thing you can play well?) I can get by with a good Carillon de Westminster (Vierne) and it's pretty challenging. I can also do Bach's Toccata in F with a good level of mastery. </P>


Unfortunately, it's a very difficult instrument to master, and I think that's why there are so few players. That, and the fact that the current trend in music tends to favor less musical traditions, and a more procussionistic nature. I enjoy modern bands (esp. the Rolling Stones, who I saw live in October), but not as much as the organ. I have managed to get a bunch of friends interested in the instrument itself, but none currently take any interest in playing it seriously. I try to play interesting music that draw people in simply because it sounds intriguing. I learned a rather amusing version of our national march, J.P. Sousa's "Stars and Stripes" for the organ, and that seems to pique people's interest. </P>


I think the best answer is to just make the organ seem interesting once more. Virgil Fox promoted active audience participation while he played (clapping, tapping, etc.), and that drew audiences closer to the instrument. Even though it was fairly popular in his day, it still wasn't what it used to be. He also played such exciting and difficult pieces, the audiences couldn't help by be pulled into it. Maybe that's what we have to do.....</P>

[tumult_in_the_praetorium]

I am a young organist also, having caught the 'organ bug' at a very young age, and have been transfixed ever since.
Here in Malta I am respected like any other organist, probably since organists are very scarce in numbers here, and the art of playing the organ is thought of as being somewhat unique (even if strange!).
On the subject of skill level, I'm quite a fast learner when it comes to new repertoire. I tend not to play Bach so much, but play a lot of Vierne, Widor, Franck and all the other Frenchies. Probably the most difficult piece I am able to play is Dupre's Prelude and Fugue in G minor, but I play quite a bit of his other oeuvre. However, I tend not to learn pieces simply because they are difficult - I learn music which seems attractive to me, and which I feel I would be able to put to good use, and do justice to the performance.

Timothy-James Guntrip

[Jason E]

As a relatively young organist (24), perhaps I can offer a few pence worth. I caught the "calling" (to mix metaphors) around 10 or so and my mum was always very supportive, though I did not actually begin study on the instrument until some years later. But I had a thorough grounding in piano from age 10.

It think that is important. Not only finger exercises (that is a topic in itself), but actual piano repertoire, particularly Bach. What that man's music does for your fingers is indescribable! There is almost a sensual feeling when playing any Bach, even the little preludes. (Some of those are quite difficult, BTW.) Throw in the spiritual aspect and your soul is given a cleansing.

As for skill level, I suspect I'm around the level of Tim, though evidently I play more Bach than he does. As for the French, we're in parallel. I've played all 6 of the Dupre P&F's plus part of the Passion Symphony. (Guess which? yummy.) Harder Messiaen is beyond me, and like Tim, I'm not drawn to learning them for their own sake.

As I have commented in another thread, I do not have a current church appointment, so I am not learning any new music at this time. I do practise the piano on a regular basis and try to keep in touch with church organist friends and their respective instruments.

Cheers,
Jason

[tumult_in_the_praetorium]

I've played all 6 of the Dupre P&amp;F's plus part of the Passion Symphony. (Guess which? yummy.)

Hmmm...was it Le Monde Dans L'Attente du Sauveur? Other than that, it could only be the fourth movement, Resurrection. In my view, these are the two 'better' movements of this work...although I've only ever played the former.
All 6 of the Preludes and Fugues? Alas, I have never played the Op.36 (?) set...but love to use the F minor for a building with a huge acoustic.

Many thanks for these points Jason - I never knew Bach was so instrumental! (No pun intended). I shall certainly play more in future, rather than just choral preludes and a few of the preludes and fugues. I suppose I can see your theory actually - but I guess that the French stuff lies more easily under the fingers and feet than Bach, for me.

On piano, I play a lot of the Two Part Inventions - which are excellent for study material.

Timothy Guntrip

[Austin766]

I'm 17, and just started playing organ in January, I've always been interested in playing the organ. I think that some organists do a real disservice to young people interested in the organ by saying "master the piano first..." What exactly do they mean by that anyway, be able to play Chopin's Heroic Polonaise, or just be able to read bass and treble clef with a high degree of accuracy. I play the organ at my school (a two manual Allen probably from the late 80's, 61 note compass, 32 note pedalboard and no toe studs, I envy those with toe studs, console envy...) however I don't get as much opportunity to play it as I would like, I take a full schedule of classes and have a mandatory study hall during my lab period. The church my father went to until I was about thirteen (we moved) has a very nice three manual pipe organ, but the Christian Scientists don't like to use their churches for anything other than services, and I fear that if I were to practice there, I might disturb those in the reading room, which is also where the Sunday School meets, and shares a wall with the organ chamber.

[Menschenstimme]

Hi Austin,</P>


I will go against the orthodoxy by saying that I do not believe in learning the piano first. All of the valuable skills that can be learned by learning piano can be learned just as well at the organ. I suspect that since the elementary keyboard skills can just as easily be learned at the piano, that this is a much more practical way to do it since pianos are more widely available and less expensive than organs. Moreover, I think that some organ teachers simply donot want to deal with beginning students. They prefer to have students who already know how to play rather skillfully and need to learn organ technique and organ literature, but not thebasics first. Of course, my comments are indeed generalizations and my own humble opinions.</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>

[Hammondlover]

I went straight for organ method. I really hate pianos (except the old vintage electric ones iefender rhodes, wurlitzer 200a etc). Banging on the keys irritates me to no end. I'd rather break fingers learning obnoxious chords (like those blasted Maj9's) then break the keys goose-stepping down them.

[PrayerBookAnglican]

I also do not get the reasoning for mastering piano before learning the organ... If a kid wants to play the organ, teach him to play the organ. The guy who taught me for a while plays in a Church near here, and he dislikes piano, even though he teaches piano. He was happy to start me on the organ as I already could play by ear passably. I'm playing in a small Anglican Church right now, I'm 32, and wish I'd taken organ lessons as a teen instead of wasting 5 years on GUITAR lessons. Live and learn. </P>


One important factor that might cause a problem is always having an "audience" that has to listen to you practise. My folks kept a "quiet" house at all times. and practise had to be at a muted level. This is very wrong, let the kid whale away wide open so he can hear what the hell he's doing, and get a literal "feel" for the music. Let him or her master not only the music, but the machine itself, and inspire confidence. I've been living alone for 8 years, so this has not been a big issue, but as a kid it was suffocating knowing that disapproving ears were listening.</P>


Buy an old organ and put it in the barn!! play for the cows full throttle...or out in the detached garage..</P>

[Clavier]

I started on the organ. I think it is a good idea because it is hard enough to learn the relationship between manual and pedal even if you start fresh and learn them at the same pace, but when you are already proficient with both hands, it takes a lot to reteach you mind in order to utilize the feet as an extension of the hands. If your intention is to learn organ, learn it first. I find that the only thing piano teaches that applies to organ is the use of a chromatic keyboard. Starting out with organ, (if you do it right), will cause you to have a "second nature" understanding of using the organ expressively. Making creative use of registration, swells, crescendos, tremulants, etcetera.

[Hammondlover]

Telling someone they need to learn the piano before going to organ is like telling some one they need to learn the harmonica before they learn the flute. Twodifferent instruments. Two different methods. Two different sounds. </P>

[AllanP]

I started taking organ lessons again after a lapse of several years. One of the first pieces that my (then new) teacher suggested was a piece by Richard Purvis called "Cloches" (french for bells). Playing with the percussion showed me that over the years, I had developed a habit of carelessly striking the keys so that the attack of the notes had a random jitter in timing. The percussion sound (like a piano) emphasized the attack timing of the notes and helped to make my playing more precise in timing.</p>

This may be the reason that organ teachers suggest playing the piano first, to get the exact timing in beginning the notes. Of course, the release timing must come from playing the organ and listening to your own playing.</p>

[soubasse32]

I strongly feel that a foundation in piano is necessary to play organ well - especially if you have any aspirations to play any of the more virtuoso organ repertoire.</P>


I had a very strictupbringing in piano- daily I drilledall major &amp; minor scales in contrary and parallel motion; thirds, octaves, arpeggios, and trills; plus excercises in velocity. I can't imagine doing these thingsat theorgan every day.</P>


A piano's action is designed to be uniform, with a narrow range of touchweight. This is necessary for building strength and flexibility of hands/fingers in a consistent way. Unless you find a piano that has serious regulation problems, you can be assured of a consistent touch at just about any piano. Yes there are variations in piano actions, but not nearly as much as you might find when you play the organ.</P>


The piano's single keyboard and lack of stops to push/pull focuses one's attention to the task at hand: keyboard technique. The organ has too many distractions for the young student.</P>


I recently had a discussion about this with several respected organ teachers (we were adjudicators at a competition); we all were in agreement about the need for a solid piano foundation before starting organ lessons.</P>

[PrayerBookAnglican]

That's why I'll never get anywhere beyond a small country chapel in my playing...I hate the piano, and couldn't play one to save my soul. It is this line of thought that turns off all the kids like me who had no interest in piano. It almost sounds like someone saying "You must have a solid foundation in banjo before starting guitar lessons...or violin before starting the cello. I move from organ to electric keyboard and always struggle with adjustments that have to be made...I'd rather toss the keyboard. It is like two languages speaking in one's mother tongue and then switching to a learned language you find yourself inserting bits and pieces of your first choice when a panic arises...and then it all falls apart musically. Maybe in 20 years I'll get over it.

[Menschenstimme]

PBA: Don't be so hard on yourself and your situation and never give up. Conventional wisdom and academic idealism have their place; notwithstanding,I suspect that I am not alone in believing that a practical approach to playing organ only is realistic and can yield excellent results. Now, you may never get a DMA and become an organ professor at an accredited university; you may never even play a professional concert. But you may be an outstanding liturgical organist, who, from a practical standpoint, plays just as well in that context as someone with all the right credentials.</P>


Onward, Christian soldier(s)!</P>


[Y]</P>

[Jason E]

That's why I'll never get anywhere beyond a small country chapel in my playing...I hate the piano, and couldn't play one to save my soul. </p>

Well there you have it. Since this thread has been bumped, I really wish you would read soubasse32's post carefully. He knows what he is talking about, and I must respectfully say that I disagree with your post. Entirely. You're an Anglican: have you tried playing Edward Bairstow's anthem Blessed City, heavenly Salem? One needs a good piano technique to play it properly, and I cannot tell you how often I've heard it mauled by organists who don't spend enough time at the piano. </p>

Americans here will certainly know Harold Gleason's book on organ technique. He was nobody's fool, and all but demanded that aspiring organists spend at least an hour a day at the piano. I do not think you can get much beyond Anglican psalm chants and Harwood in Ab without working on your piano technique. Besides, as soubasse32 well knows, it's a helluva lot of fun. Cheers, mate. [:D]
</p>

[PrayerBookAnglican]

Well, I spend an hour or more every day practising on my Yamaha keyboard. Granted, its not a piano. I fully respect everyone's studied opinion on here, and I try to carefully read each post through. I consider myself an amateur, and have no desire to play concerts etc. My organist duties involve leading the congregation in hymns, the Responses during the Liturgy, and providing simple background music for those times when no one is singing...prelude/postlude/offertory/Communion time/etc. It's not me who's important, its only that I play well enough to not draw attention to myself, but point other's thoughts to God. I'm a farmer and have a day job to boot, everyone knows I'm just filling a slot until a better organist comes along, it's me or back to the nothing they had before. I don;t even own a piano, and have no intention of buying one.</P>


Anyhow, gotta go to work...</P>

[ReedGuy]

Some very good points by all here. </P>


To be honest, I think the foundation I had in piano has served me well as an organist. If someone out there does not have a foundation on piano and goes straight for the organ, I don't think it's the end of the world, I firmly believe that with God's help you can do anything that you set your mind to. But the keyboard foundation does make a difference and it also makes the learning curve easier. There are so many things to think about when playing the organ: stops, registrations, expression pedals, etc. To have to master keyboard technique on top of that, while this is doable, is quite a lot to chew. </P>


When I do finger exercises I definitely prefer to do them on a piano, or at the very least on a tracker. If it's on a tracker, I'm actually hoping that it is not well maintained, the humidity in the place is high, the keys are heavy and sticky, etc. In this way I really give my fingers a workout. On some of the electropneumatic organs out thereand even more so the electronic ones, I could not do decent finger exercises on those. My fingers would not even break a sweat. </P>


The other point I'd like to make here is that what I think will help us organists to make it out there in an age of "worship wars," and trying to make it out there as a performers, is versatility. There will be times out there where you will be called upon to be an accompanist for solosists and choirs, or something may happen to the organ, or you will have to contend with hymns that clearly lend themselves to piano accompaniment, or lastly you'll receive a request for example to play Chopinfor a funeral.Even still,perhaps others are feeling this also, but I have been feeling a definite push in our churches for the contemporary. While this is another kettle of fish altogther, the point here is I know have to deal with aanother hymnbook (the church I'm in will now have two kinds of hymnbooksin the pews), only this one is definitely contemporary. I'd be surprised if anyone in the pews will recognize any of them. The creators of it stated that they "are not slighting organists in the creation of this hymnbook." Well perhaps not, be we were definitely ignored. When you look at this hymnbook,the accompanimentsare all suited more to piano than organ. I doubt they presented this hymnbook with an organist. Sometimes I know I am winning the battle with trying to make the organ as irresistible to the listener, but with this new book I will have to find a way to make the hymns"organ friendly," and I know that with some it may not be possible. So, we have to be versatile.</P>

[Orgrinder010]

I strongly feel that a foundation in piano is necessary to play organ well - especially if you have any aspirations to play any of the more virtuoso organ repertoire.</P><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I agree with soubasse32. It is very important to train you hands for consistency. Often I see people rarely using their 5th finger on the organ, because it doesn't have the strength to reach out and press the keys. The result is sloppy, inconsistent playing (me included).</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I practice the piano every chance I can get.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>

[PrayerBookAnglican]

Well, that settles it. I'll just quit my job, give up every community endeavour, sell my organ/keyboard, put it all on hold for at least 10 years while I become a piano virtuoso before daring to approach the hallowed keys of the mighty organ and join the ranks of the lofty and elegant organists with certificates and degrees....[:P]</P>


I could crush green apples with either hand and usually find that every song demands every finger and thumbI've got</P>


Historically what came first...the piano, or the organ? ...[^o)]</P>

[soubasse32]

In the piano world, there is an age old debate about how heavya piano'stouch should be - especially for a student. I smile when I think about some of the heavy organ actions I've played. If only pianists knew how heavy a big tracker can get, they would be horrified! [:D]</P>


Anyway, there is a widely-held belief in the piano world that a heavier action is better to develop a young pianist's finger strength, as long as it is not too heavy. The thought is that a pianist with strong, developedhands can easily adapt to a lighter action, and can thus be better prepared for any instrument. Conversely, if a pianist has learned upon a light action, they will have a terrible time adapting to a heavy one.Murphy's Law has a way of presenting these pianists with a heavy-actioned piano whenever they need to play an audition or perform!</P>


If youspend your timepracticing on a piano with a nice firm action, you should find it easy to play an organ with a (slightly) heavier action or a much lighter action. Adaptability is the key.</P>


And for hand/finger strength, flexibility (stretching), and fluidity of motion (wrists, fingers) I still feel the piano is the way to go.</P>


I've no doubta "no-piano" organist canpassably playbasic music, but why limit your technique? Why limityour flexibility to play other keyboard instruments well?</P>

[soubasse32]

PBA, our posts crossed- I just read your most recent one.</P>



Well, that settles it. I'll just quit my job, give up every community endeavour, sell my organ/keyboard, put it all on hold for at least 10 years while I become a piano virtuoso before daring to approach the hallowed keys of the mighty organ and join the ranks of the lofty and elegant organists with certificates and degrees....[:P]</P>


I was lucky that I did all of that piano virtuoso stuff while I was a student! I came to the organ somewhat late in life.</P>


Of course, a working person willhave littletime to become avirtuoso pianist. But it is possible to do a few piano excercises every day - to the benefit of everything that you currently play.</P>


I have an example:perhaps someday you might have to play an anthem by Handel, Bach, Vivaldi, or Mozart - something with a lot of scales or thirds. If you've had some piano foundation, then you could play this without having to rehearse quite so much (or worse: "faking it").</P>


Then there is something romantic like How LovelyIs Thy Dwelling Place from the Brahms "Requiem". This is a standard choir anthem, and one that I much prefer playing on the piano (though I happily do it on organ when required). If it is taken at a good clip, it can really be daunting. A pianist who has played lots of Brahms would be able to do it with a little practice. An organist who has not played piano would have a pretty tough time of it on either instrument.</P>



Historically what came first...the piano, or the organ? ...[^o)]</P>


Not sure of your point, but of course the organ came first. But you should know... before pianos were inventedit was common fororganiststopracticeat home, busily building their finger technique on harpsichords and clavichords. [;)]</P>

[Jason E]

Well, that settles it. I'll just quit my job, give up every community endeavour, sell my organ/keyboard, put it all on hold for at least 10 years while I become a piano virtuoso before daring to approach the hallowed keys of the mighty organ and join the ranks of the lofty and elegant organists with certificates and degrees....</p>

Jeez, PBA, no need to jump down our collective throats. No harm intended. I feel it important for an organist to have a solid grounding in piano technique, but maybe that ignored your particular situation. For that, I apologise. Obviously when you asked "what came first", that was a rhetorical question. Yet the later arrival of the piano on the musical scene has certainly made things easier for organists in building and refining their manual technique. </p>

</p>

[PrayerBookAnglican]

No harm taken. I guess my thoughts are related to another thread that discusses why young people do not seem to be flocking to the organ. The organ companies who have gone bust in the last 20 years are a sad legacy of the elitism that I sense on here. God forbid an average working stiff should buy an organ to put in his living room for the family to play... This is why there are thousands of churches with dust covered organs sitting forlorn in the corner, and why most new generation churches would not even have an organ on their worship radar screen. The image of the robed bespectacled and grey headed organist peering down his nose over his Bach Fugue is not appealing to the rank and file. You talk about adapting to new worship music...being relevant etc. Well I grew up with gospel style music, that's why I have the Hammond, I can rock'n roll my way through "Our God reigns" and "This Is The Day..." thumping out a rhythm just a'swingin. My tastes have changed along with my theology in the last decade. I now attend a traditional, low Prayer Book Anglican parish. I no longer enjoy the "gospel" genre...really I never embraced it, it was more of a cultural influence...like a default setting. I've reset my parameters. I'm in the position of re-thinking the way I play...not simply reeling off tunes by ear but taking seriously the task of leading in worship with reverence and dignity. I feel humbled to hear the people following me....no choruses, we are strictly hymns, and it demands adapting from "free'n easy" to measured and disciplined. However, if I had never become interested in the organ in a casual way over the years, I would not be where I am now. So to insist that every aspiring organ player must achieve some stratospheric level of excellence and competence before pursuing their interest in the instrument is simply suicidal. Just ask any organ dealer how many families with young kids he sells to annually...</P>


Stack 'em deep, and sell 'em cheap...</P>

[solotibiaclausa]

Years ago Berlin High School in Berlin, NH got a hold of a 2 manual 10 rank theatre organ. A group of teachers let a dedicated group of students ( with the help of organ technicians) with restoring the organ. What an awesome class that would be! That would make me want to go to school! We need more exposure to the organ to young people. Up in Portland, ME at the city hall organ, they host "kotzmacher 4 kids". They have a small organ that demonstrates how it works. When I have my friends over they are amazed by my "small" home organ project. The organ seems to not be "cool" anymore to the general public which is unfortunate.

[Austin766]

I don't really get this whole "organ is no longer cool" thing, because, quite frankly, I've been attracted to the organ since I was knee high to a grasshopper. And I would submit that it is the organists who sit there on their benches telling young people who are genuinely interested in learning the instrument to master the piano first which really does drive kids away, and while while I commend those virtuosi de piano among us, I would say that as a self taught (mainly) musician, it can be quite discouraging when you're told to essentially go kick rocks. I do feel that a certain amount of piano experience helps, but only to the point of understanding the chromatic keyboard, and reading. Sorry to repeat myself, I know I said most of this in my previous post, but I happen to feel strongly this way. </p>

But really, the whole "organ is no longer cool" thing? I just don't get it.</p>

[Menschenstimme]

Amen, Austin!</P>


[D]</P>

[solotibiaclausa]

Well i have been into the organ since I was 7. I am 20 now. I think its the greatest thing. I am still amazed by it. I live in a tough city with alot of violent people and stuff. All those people dont care about the organ. They want to listen to gangster rap and all that crap. I just get that the general view of the pipe organ for people my age is "not cool". Get my drift? very sad

[Bombarde32]

I have played on some very heavy pianos before and I must say that each time I am horrified at how heavy the actions are. I used to have a home piano that had a very heavy action on it. My general experience was that I got used to slowing things down and digging in because of the effort those keys required. When I moved to other instruments I had trouble getting back up to speed. I also found that I had trouble controlling my touch because I had spent so much energy into developing strength. pp and p were no longer options for me - mp and up was what I had left.</P>


So I would side with the moderate actions (piano and organ included) for learning and light for performing (once you have some control).</P>


More importantly though than the heavy-ness of an action ... I think is technique. The piano world seems to have better defined rules for fingering and overall technique that I think would be very useful on the organ. But as you mentioned - for a service organist or someone just playing at home (both of which I fall into) ... you don't have to start on piano.</P>

[soubasse32]

I would submit that it is the organists who sit there on their benches telling young people who are genuinely interested in learning the instrument to master the piano first which really does drive kids away, and while while I commend those virtuosi de piano among us, I would say that as a self taught (mainly) musician, it can be quite discouraging when you're told to essentially go kick rocks.</P>


Although I'm a strong promoter of learning piano before organ, I've never told a young person to "go kick rocks", when they've showed a genuine interest in learning organ!</P>


We can complain about young people's lack of interest, but how many folks actually do anything about it? </P>


I welcome kids of any age to freely experiment at the organ console after a church service. I also developed an "Organ 101 class", which I presentedeach fall. It is in the form of a multimedia lecture/recital with lots of props.</P>


I've tailored special recitals as a field trip for local schools, including Special-Ed kids. These take a special effort to organize, as I can assure you organ music isn't on any school's curriculum. [:D]</P>


I accompany several children's choirs, and I often put my "two cents" in, as far as encouraging their staff leadership toprogram works that make use of the organ. When that does happen, I ask for a bit of rehearsal time in order to make a presentation to the kids and to answer their questions.</P>


Whenever I've had a young organ student without keyboard skills, I've taught them piano in addition to the organ - as part of their regular lesson time. I wouldn't dream of telling a kid "come back when you've figured out how to play a piano likeHorowitz"! [:O]</P>


The real challenge is finding kids who are willing to put in the time to practice - whatever the instrument. It seems as if so many kids (and their parents) are only interested in immediate gratification. </P>

[ReedGuy]

Wow, this is turned out to be quite a thread! </P>


I'd like to say that I'm not a "grey headed organist peering down his nose..." etc. I'm a young organist and the organ is cool! The fault lies in EDUCATION. If some parents don't make the effort to instill the artsintheir kids, neither will their kidswhen they have kids of their own and so the cycle goes. The same is true about the faith. If some parents just go to church for baptisms, etc. and never come back, it is quite probable that the kids when they get older do the same. In our schools, the first thing to get the cutting axe when the budget needs to be balanced is the arts. This is not to say that sports and such do not play an important role, this is just to say thatmany kids are in general no longer brought up to the arts etc. like they used to. They have been inundated with Nintendo, computers, instant gratification,Ipods, etc.</P>


We as organists, other musicians, clergy, etc. have a REAL challenge on our hands. There is so much competing against the arts and church attendance. If we were to make a list about itthe listwould be so long- never mind that if you turn on your television how often do you hear them promoting love thy neighbour, etc. yet how fast they will broadcast a church scandal. What has happened to our culture, or perhaps the lack of it? </P>


Soubasse32 it's wonderful what you are doing. It's up to us organists to do our part to promote the instrument and to educate.As in the movie the American President, "they eat the sand because they don't know the difference." I recently organized an organ crawl for my Junior Choir and opened it up to everybody. Plenty of people came and they enjoyed it so much that they want to have another! I not only let people check out the organ after the service, I encourage it. I've even had two boys who wanted to play some Bach on the piano before the service- instead I suggested that they play it as the prelude on the organ with me helping them pick their stops. There are so many ways to help promote our instrument. Butwe really have to roll up our sleeves and work because we have our work cut out for us, more so than ever before. </P>


Perhaps this should be a new thread altogether. We should all collectively brainstorm on how we in our own cornercan promote the most magnificent instrument ever - the organ. </P>


With respect to the piano issue. As mentioned in a previous post, while I don't think it'scurtains if one doesn't have the piano technique - you can still make it and do well, I do believe that without the piano background the learning curve is much steeper. I think that if I had lept into the organ cold without any piano, the challenge for me would have been far greater.</P>

[Austin766]

To say just one more thing about the piano issue, at my confirmation this past May at Trinity Cathedral in Cleveland, I spent something like half the service looking back over my shoulder at the Flentrop, and afterwards I went up into the organ loft and asked the organist some questions (e.g. Is this a tracker - I didn't know it was Flentrop, nor did I know that Flentrop really only built trackers) I then said to the organist that I was interested in learning the organ and she said that I needed to master piano first[:(]. I am now working on learning the organ, teaching myself,at school, (we have a 2m Allen) and am having a blast.I finally figured -with some encouragement from my music theory teacher (also the director of Jazz Bands)-that I was good enough at piano, and that I was interested enough in the organ, that I could teach myself more or less.

[PrayerBookAnglican]

Austin766,</P>


Once you get to be a "cathedral organist" then you can peer down your nose over your Bach Fugue and tell wannabe's to go and kick rocks... :)</P>


Just stick to your guns. I found myself in the position of attending a parish with no musician of any sort. I said, I would be willing to serve as their organist...they said okay. I said I might make a lot of mistakes...they said that's okay. tada. I'm scrambling to improve my music reading abiliy, and my playing style etc, so far it has been steady progress. The only way to learn is to jump into harness and drive on...Do or Die. When you've got 2 services to play and they are counting on you to learn the music and play for them both, you do what you have to do to get it right. I've lost weight...I get very intense when learning a new hymn setting, hours seem to fly by.</P>

[SimonS]

I'm quite torn on the whole learning piano first issue. I never really took "proper" piano lessons -- I learned piano music on a (non-weighted) electric keyboard for years before eventually moving on to organ. Do I feel I missed out? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. At the very least, I'm pretty sure that my enthusiasm would have been severely diminished if I was told I had to "master" the piano first. Leaving aside the fact that that's a virtually meaningless concept, I think that a level of keyboard proficiency is handy to have, an advanced keyboard technique is obviously a great asset, but neither should be considered a prerequisite for an enthusiastic student.

For those growing up with heavy trackers, finger strength is hardly an issue, and fast playing (scales etc.) can be successfully learned on any keyboard of choice. Where the problems start to arise is in the issue of control, especially in Baroque/early music, and a very sensitive, light-touch tracker in a dry acoustic can be ruthlessly revealing of deficiencies here. I thought I was a good player, but my first time on such a tracker proved heart-breaking. Hearing an expert player use that sensitivity to their advantage was a revelation, and I knew I had a long way to go. The thing is, piano practice hindered rather than helped when I started studying early fingerings, articulation and techniques. At this level, the techniques required are wildly different to the piano, the whole question of touch is different, the amount of effort used by the fingers is different, the whole thought process of addressing the keys is different. So, while I think piano may be a very important aspect in the mastery of Romantic-&gt;contemporary music, for the earlier stuff I actually think it's a hindrance, and you're better off sticking to sensitive trackers, developing a good ear, and finding a really good teacher.</p>

On the issue of younger people getting interested in organ playing I have very strong views that if kids were allowed to touch they might be a bit more interested. Of course, many organists guard their instruments like their life depended on it, and kids haven't got a hope of getting near it. Couple this with the "to learn this instrument you have to master a different one first" argument and I can understand why the organ doesn't seem that interesting. I got into it because I was allowed to have a go when I could play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star with one finger. I was instantly hooked.</p>

Si</p>

[soubasse32]

Interesting posts.</P>


Simon, I'm curious to know if you practiced scales - either on the organ or on the keyboard?</P>


I know that when I'm confronted with a technically difficult manual passage, I'm thankful that I've probably drilled a similar pattern at the piano - and likely in all keys.</P>


As far as piano technique hindering one's pursuit of early playing practices... I think that it actually helps me more than it hinders me. Althoughearly music organ playing techniques are quite different from romantic piano literature, Iam encouragedthat I can master anything because I'vestudied so many different keyboards and styles.</P>


The more keyboards/styles I learn, the more versatile I become.The thoughtof sticking to only one keyboard or playing stylefor an entirelifetime seems so limiting, though I don't deny the need for specialists in a given field.</P>


Austin766, I have a couple questions for you. When that organist told you to learn piano first, did you ask her to explain why?</P>


I think that someone who plays at such a nice instrument in such an impressivechurch might have some words of wisdom about the subject. She must have worked long and hard to getsuch an importantjob; I can't imagine she wouldn't give you a thoughtful response.</P>


Did you seek out any other organ teachers?</P>


I've been told tolearn clarinet before I could learn oboe; I've been told I need to have a church before I can take organ lessons; I've been told that I was too young to teach, to conduct, etc. etc. I've never let such obstacles get inthe way, although Iam willing toalter my course temporarily if a convincing argument is presented.</P>


By the way, you live in an area that is full of musical excellence. You might apply at the Cleveland Institute of Music, or the Cleveland Music School Settlement. You might just try some piano lessons - give it a year and then see if you find it helpful. I see you are studying theory - you might also look into taking a Theory &amp; Composition class at CIM - these are all things which will help you become a well-rounded musician, no matter what instrument you play.</P>


Lastly, you should contact the Cleveland AGO - they should have some helpfulresources for young organists. Generally I think the results are better when you study music from someone knowledgeable rather than going it alone.</P>

[Austin766]

Soubase32, I did not even think about asking the organist at Trinity Cathedral (interestingly, although this is the diocesan seat, it is not the "socially correct" church for the diocese, that would be St. Paul's Cleveland Heights with the Holtkamp main organ) why I needed to learn or master piano first. I made an inquiry with the assistant librarian at school, she is an organist, and said she would be happy to teach me (now, if i could only get out of my stupid silent study...). I really don't have time outside of school to take organ lessons right now, I have Boy Scouts on Monday, Viola on Wednesday, and have several hours of homework every night. I also have track practice after school every day.
</p>

Nobody goes there anymore - it's too crowded.

</p>

[SimonS]

Simon, I'm curious to know if you practiced scales - either on the organ or on the keyboard?</p>

</p>

Hi Soubasse32,

In my early years I never did any scales. I only started when I wanted to do organ exams, by which point I'd been playing for 5 years or so. By that stage, I didn't find the scales too difficult, as I was used to playing all kinds of music. The thing is, there are definitely times that I'm sorry I didn't do more technical stuff in those early years, but that needs to be taken in the context of my general lack of enthusiasm for technical stuff in those early years! In my case, I really think I was better off playing music, but that may not be true for everyone.</p>



</p>


I know that when I'm confronted with a technically difficult manual passage, I'm thankful that I've probably drilled a similar pattern at the piano - and likely in all keys.</p>

</p>

Indeed, but my feeling is that a lot of this work can just as handily be done on the right organ. I stress, I don't think a very light electric action is a suitable way to build the strength and dexterity required in beginning players. But if you can play scales evenly on a "robust" tracker, you can pretty much play them anywhere.</p>

The thing about scales is that, IMHO, many people don't use them properly. It's not really enough to be able to rattle off a scale in any key, as fast as possible, but that's all a lot of people do. Evenness, control and articulation are crucial, and the latter should be varied to cover all styles. But the most important thing is to listen, and that's something that often takes a back when doing technical exercises. Again speaking for myself, I find it more rewarding to face the challenges of individual pieces rather than doing all the scales with all the articulations. It may take me longer to learn a piece, but it would break my heart to spend most of my limited practice time doing exercises.


</p>


As far as piano technique hindering one's pursuit of early playing practices... I think that it actually helps me more than it hinders me. Althoughearly music organ playing techniques are quite different from romantic piano literature, Iam encouragedthat I can master anything because I'vestudied so many different keyboards and styles.</p>


The more keyboards/styles I learn, the more versatile I become.The thoughtof sticking to only one keyboard or playing stylefor an entirelifetime seems so limiting, though I don't deny the need for specialists in a given field.</p>

</p>

I agree with your point on versatility. My teacher tells a story about playing a recital on an electric action cathedral organ while he was studying with Piet Kee. On hearing about the recital, Piet was very displeased, and told him that his technique would now be ruined after playing on an electric action! I'm not quite taking such an extreme approach.</p>

One thing that I hate is the perception that the organ is a piano with pipes and pedals. It really isn't, and organists who approach the instrument this way aren't very good organists (IMHO). Of course, playing a piano, or a harpsichord, or a clavichord can help make us better musicians, and can help overcome different obstacles quicker than we might if we just played one instrument, but I think there is huge benefit in taking your first musical steps at the organ, and dealing with its own unique foibles from day one. The organ produces sound in a way that other instruments don't, and that needs to be learned, via the fingers, as early as possible. If all you're ever going to do is play large Romantic works on large instruments then maybe piano is a great start, but I think that itself can very quickly become the limiting factor. Many such organists don't understand questions of baroque touch at all, and are completely at sea if faced with such an instrument.
</p>

Look, most organists don't have access to an organ for all of their practice time, so a piano is used as a practice instrument in the home. This is the reality, and it stands to reason that such practice is going to help organists overcome difficulties. As a practice tool, a good piano is better than a bad organ any day. What I don't accept is the mantra that you have to learn the piano if you want to learn the organ. Of course, it's easier for organ teachers if a "new" student is already a fine pianist. It's also been accepted for so long, that it's just kind of assumed by everyone that you have to learn the piano first. I really don't think it needs to be so. In fact, I think to be a really good organist you'd be far better off with a clavichord at home... [;)]</p>


Si</p>

[Jessica]

Hello all. Thank you Opendiapason for beginning this amazing thread. I have enjoyed reading it sonce I sometimes enjoy exploring the views of others. I'm a young too (22) but I don't know if I could really consider myself an organist yet. Well, my story is rather unique. I just started playing the piano about3 years ago, and loved it. I'd always wanted to become a pianist, but never really thought I had what it takes. But then I finally got myself a desent keyboard, began taking lessons and have done quite well. My teacher already has me playing Clementi and a few popular tunes. My organ encounter was some time in the middle of last year when my teacher basically said, "Come on over here and check this out." I fell hard and fast for the added musical capabilities. Ever since that day, I've sort of been riding the fence working away at both. I still consider myself a pianist first, although lately, I've been waffling about that. In regard to reaching more young people, I agree that much has to be done. I'm studying special Education right now, but I'd really like to do some kind of arts outreach work. I'm still a bit perplexed about exactly what this means, but so far, just being myself has influenced some of my peers. </P>


It was nice getting to know all of you via this thread. Sorry for the ramble all about me. </P>

[Jessica]

Oh, and I'd also like to compliment all of you for keeping this whole thing friendly.

[Austin766]

You say you've really just started playing piano and organ, did you have any prior musical experience (i.e. any other instruments that you played with some level of seriousness) or is the piano really your first instrument?

[Jessica]

No, I have not. I knew some basic theory because I sang in the chorus in high school, and I always had my ears open to any kind of musical information that happened to drift my way. I'd say that my recent diving-in was either a way-early mid-life crisis or a delayed teenage self-identification issue, ha ha! I just decided that this is what I need to do in order to live my life for all that it's worth.

[W4KSR]

Years ago Berlin High School in Berlin, NH got a hold of a 2 manual 10 rank theatre organ. A group of teachers let a dedicated group of students ( with the help of organ technicians) with restoring the organ. What an awesome class that would be! That would make me want to go to school! We need more exposure to the organ to young people. Up in Portland, ME at the city hall organ, they host "kotzmacher 4 kids". They have a small organ that demonstrates how it works. When I have my friends over they are amazed by my "small" home organ project. The organ seems to not be "cool" anymore to the general public which is unfortunate.
</P>


Actually, that's The Berlin Middle School that organ is in. I know the technician(Jim Martin) that takes care of it. He once told me of when it was discovered, it had a blanket that had been thrown over the console, and was there for so long, it had sunk in the horseshoe pattern of the console. The administration was going to have it hauled out for junk, and Jim advised them they had a priceless piece of history there, and it should be restored. He then organized a volunteer group of students to help restore, and maintain the instrument. </P>


In Old Orchard Beach, Me., there is a 3/13 Wurlitzer in the Loranger Middle School, maintained, and played by The Pine Tree Chapter of The American Theatre Organ Society. They also demonstrate the instrument for the school, during assemblies. Kids have actually played the instrument, also. I have played that organ many times. It's maintained beautifully.</P>


Unfortunatly, the portability,low cost, and versatilityof electronic keyboards have doomed the popularity of the organ. Also, from the sports venue aspect, the computer has done the same, where it is cheaper to pay a staffer to punch up a song via a computer mouse click, rather than pay a musician to play an organ. Gone are the days of hearing the John Kileys and Eddie Laytons at the ballpark, now they are replaced by blaring rock, and rap music. Oddly enough (at least for our side), the public is complaining. Hopefully more will, and full-time organ music can be restored.</P>


Mark</P>
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[open_diapason]

Hello All,</P>


Im so glad that this thread has been so popular. I have not been onto the forum for a while due to me being busy revising for exams, organ comitments etc.</P>


I have recently brought up the fact that organists are a "dieing breed" as more and more pianists and CD's are taking over playing for church services in a PCC meeting at my church. They have agreed to start a fund in the local comunity that can be accessed to give funding for young people to learn the organ. I have agreed to teach any body willing the basics of theorganbut will then use the funding to send them to a "real" organ tutor at our cathedral. Maybe other churches and organisations could do the same to try to get more organists back into churches?</P>


Regards,</P>


Open_Diapason</P>

[Havoc]

I started with the piano as well (5 years). The reasons given were not very valid when I look at them now. But at the same time I regret I didn't study the piano any better then. The remark made about piano technique being useful for romantic/modern is about right if you add 'on an electric/ep organ' to it. But for baroque on a (light) tracker a harpischord is a better start for getting used to articulation etc.


As a practice tool, a good piano is better than a bad organ any day.

Agreed. I would even go further and include it to be better than any electronic stuff.

[SimonS]

</p>

I have recently brought up the fact that organists are a "dieing breed" as more and more pianists and CD's are taking over playing for church services in a PCC meeting at my church. They have agreed to start a fund in the local comunity that can be accessed to give funding for young people to learn the organ. I have agreed to teach any body willing the basics of theorganbut will then use the funding to send them to a "real" organ tutor at our cathedral. Maybe other churches and organisations could do the same to try to get more organists back into churches?
</p>

</p>

</p>

About 15 years ago, a scheme was set up within the Church of Ireland diocese of Dublin, and it has been extremely successful, not only in keeping organ music alive within the diocese, but also ensuring a good supply of competent organists. There's quite the little organ community here at this stage, with players young and old. I was one of the first students on this scheme, and it served me very well. Certainly in Dublin at least, organists are not a "dying breed". There are lots of young organists around, and not just as a consequence of this programme. In any case, details can be found here for anyone who might be interested: http://www.churchmusicdublin.org/certificate</p>


Si
</p>

[open_diapason]

I was lucky enough to gain funding from the Royal Schools Of Church Music (RSCM) to fund a years worthof lessons at the Llandaff Cathedral. I'm also very lucky to be in a very appreciative and suportive Parish as the congregation set up a fund to continue to pay for lessons for me!! - although I am studying for exams at the moment so have discontinued my lessons. I am Hoping to train one of our choristers on the organ with the funds ready for when I "Retire" to university.</P>


Regards,</P>


Geraint (open_diapason)</P>
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[FrenchHorn8]

On the topic of organs in schools.... The big IV/72 Skinner here is actually in W.K. Kellogg Middle School. When working there, carrying around my toolbox and stuff, the students ask me what I'm doing there, and I tell them I'm working on the pipe organ. They always get this really puzzled look on their faces. I don't think any of the students know it's there (except the ones I told). Even most the teachers don't know it's there. The high school band director said to me while I was working on it, "Oh.... I thought they got that thing out of here." (grrr!)

The middle school band director has heard me playing it and has been getting interested in the work I've been doing on the instrument. He knows nothing about the pipe organ, so I'm going to try to make arrangements before school's out to take him through the instrument. He's a trombonist, so I'm hoping he'll get a kick out of the 32' unit Pedal Trombone on 20" of wind!

Trevor

[soubasse32]

It sounds as if your high school band director could use some educating! [:@]</P>


You might start by mentioning that the school's large Aeolian-Skinner organ is an historic national treasure, perhaps worth more than anything the school owns (including all the band instruments combined)!</P>

[Menschenstimme]

Good point, S32!</P>


We have a III/72 Schantz at church and when I tell folks that it has an estimated replacement cost of at least $2 million, they may say something like: "Wow, I had no idea, that's amazing!" But I still get the feeling that it did not really register (pun intended).</P>


[:^)]</P>

[FrenchHorn8]

It sounds as if your high school band director could use some educating! [:@]</P>


You might start by mentioning that the school's large Aeolian-Skinner organ is an historic national treasure, perhaps worth more than anything the school owns (including all the band instruments combined)!</P>



Actually he wasn't my high school band director (thank goodness). He's the band director at my high school's "across town rival".

I'm afraid to tell them what it's worth. I have a feeling that they would be more than willing to sell it just to get it "out of the way". I doubt that anyone would pay its replacement value, but I bet there are a lot of people out there that would pay good money for a large, unaltered Skinner like this.

[Austin766]

I happen to agree with Soubase (I should start counting how many times I do that, it happens an awful lot) that somebody needs some educatin' (now why couldn't they have standardized exams for pipe organ[N] I hate standardized exams, and the College Board, but that is another matter all together). However if they would sell the organ just to get it out of the way and make a quick buck, then I wouldn't tell 'em what its value is and would just play it and enjoy ti, after all, it is a Skinner[:D].

[Austin766]

MenchenStimme (sheesh next time get a name I can spell[:P]) I actually have heard pretty much the same thing out of people at my father's church, they seemed actually surprised that there was a real pipe organ, despite being able to see the facade pipes, and another rank of very small pipes behind the facade, but, I suppose the general congregation there has never been in the organ chamber, as i have.

[ReedGuy]

I, too, find that there is plenty of educating to do with regards to the pipe organ. Some examples:</P>


- I told someone that I am an organist.I wastold that "that is not a real job." (I felt insulted on so many levels [:@]). </P>


- Someone mentioned to me that they had no idea that pipe organs were still being built.He felt that they had fallen into disuse and that is was not possible to buy a new pipe organ because there are no builders left. He also said that organs play funeral music. [:@]</P>


- I have had surprised looks when I mention to people that organists play with their feet as well as their hands. [:O]</P>


- Someone told me once that they had an organ downstairs that I could practice my Bach on and all that stuff! I went downstairs only to find an instrument with one keyboard that was half the usual length, 3 pedals, no stops, and it sounded more like an accordion and I could hear the sound of air coming from it. (No offence intended to any accordion players out there). [:(]</P>


It's tough when you are a young organist sometimes.There arepeople out there who have no idea. That's why I organized a Pipes and Pizza event at my church.These things really make a difference - I was surprised how manypeople came and howmuch they said they learnt from the experience. One of the challenges is that organs arepredominantly in churches. With church attendance in decline, sodoes exposure to organs.</P>
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