Sad State of Music in the churches

[miaclockman]

I was raised Roman Catholic and was music director for many churches over the years (I'm 55 now) and it pains me to see the sad state of affairs in the RC church today. Priests and bishops sit scratching their heads wondering why their churches are emptying. My answer lays the blame on a multitude of problems. First of all, I apologize if I offend anyone with my opinions, but understand that this forum is strictly FOR opinions and I will attempt to be sensitive.

* Music Directors: I have been to too many churches where so-called Music Directors have no sense of the power that music has to draw or shove people away. Music is not just notes on a page, and the best equipment in the world does not a good musician make. Look at Mozart - his genius was limited to a quill and ink. He was quoted as saying that there were not enough hours in the day to overcome the limitations of putting his ideas on paper. Imagine if he had a computer with Finale! We would have 10 times the operas, cantatas, organ and orchestral pieces. However, the best software in the hands of a poor musician won't make him/her a genius.

* Pastors/Priests: I go to so many services and Masses only to be bored to tears by listening to someone drone on. There is so little passion out there. As a public school teacher of 27 years (retired due to health problems), I used to get so upset when I would hear teachers complain that they aren't in the classroom to entertain the students. "They should just learn the material." Not so - if you look at the most exemplary teachers today, they bring whatever subject to life with passionate and sometimes dramatic tactics. Any great spiritual leader throughout history was known for passion and a fiery drive to get the message out to the people.

* Tossing organs out and replacing them with "bands". The church is a living, growing entity. And any living thing must evolve if it is to survive. However, dismantling an organ is a true tragedy. For 6 years, I was part of a 'Youth Choir" for a Catholic church in Ft. Lauderdale, FL. We had the Sunday evening "Youth Mass". The church had a seating capacity of 6,000. It was so full that people were spilling out into the foyer and outside the doors. Was all of our music contemporary? NOT AT ALL! We used everything from Bach, Vivaldi and other classic composers to the most contemporary Christian musicians. Did the 3-manual Allen sit there gathering dust? NO! Even for the contemporary pieces, I used the organ as a foundation to the other instruments. Of course, on the classical pieces, it came to the forefront. But the bottom line is that our director knew that it wasn't the style of music that touched peoples' hearts, but rather using sensitivity and true musical passion that did the job. One of the most difficult times that I had with that group was a funeral Mass for a 9 year-old boy who died on Christmas eve. The family had come to the Midnight Mass and gone home to open the presents. While he was tearing the paper off of a present, an artery burst in his brain and he was dead within minutes.

The family was devastated. They requested our group to be the musicians for the funeral as the little boy was always in the front row singing with gusto every piece that we played every Sunday night. The music chosen for the funeral was a mix of traditional and contemporary pieces including his "favorite song". Because of our group and a very passionate priest who touched the family with a message of hope, a terrible tragedy that made no sense somehow evolved into healing the deep devastation of the family members and an understanding that there is a greater lesson to be learned. It became a celebration of that child's life.

* Apathy/complacency on the part of the congregations: I've always said that, for the most part, people deserve what they ask for. Far too many times I've seen people trudge into a church because it was the "right thing to do" and be subjected to horrible music, lifeless sermons, and no sense of awe and mystery. People need to rise up and complain to the bishops and elders if they have a pathetic leader in their church! However, when they sit Sunday after Sunday enduring hollow services, they deserve what they get.

* Final words: as someone who grew up playing the organ from the age of 5 (it's funny to see my social security records - they date back to age 16 when I was music director at my home church), it hurts me to not only see organs destroyed (I watched in horror one time when a 60 rank Aeolian Skinner masterpiece was dismantled and the pipes actually smashed and crushed) or sold on Ebay and being replaced by bands. Keep in mind, I have NO animocity against contemporary Christian music. But everything has its place and the leaders of our churches have lost perspective on what is appropriate. We need pastors who have fire and passion for spreading the message. We need music directors who don't just come to collect a paycheck and settle for mediocrity. They need to understand that there is a fragile balance in music and keep an open mind to all syles of music. Music can have as much power to reach people's hearts as does the sermon. I was asked one time if I like playing Weddings or Funerals. My emphatic answer was that my choice would always be a funeral. I know it sounds morose, but weddings are celebrations and most times people are caught up in the little details of flowers, caterers, and the like. At a funeral, people are searching for meaning out of what doesn't make sense and music is one venue that can truly heal broken hearts and draw people closer to God.

I know that this was a bit off-topic as this is an organ forum, but there is more than just the issue of trashing organs that is driving people out of churches in droves. Every instrument has its place in worship - but we need to strike a balance if we are truly dedicated to our craft. Bach and Amy Grant can exist side-by-side, provided that one has the sensitivity to know when and where to place each.

Again, I know this is somewhat off-topic, but in a sense applies to organs and music in general. I hope that I have not offended anyone, and as I said in the beginning, I have striven to be sensitive in my "soap-box" speech. Thanks for listening.

MIACLOCKMAN

[Admin]

Your post is entirely appropriate for this forum and is welcome. There have been similar threads here in the past and I suspect that there will be ones in the future as well.

As someone who stopped going to church decades ago, I'm not going to presume to tell churches how to conduct themselves, but I will make a couple of observations:

It seems to me that contemporary churches have attempted to position themselves as a place to go to be entertained on Sunday morning rather than a place to worship. From a purely musical standpoint there is little difference between a contemporary christian ballad backed by a praise band and a pop ballad.
Joseph Campbell wrote of the importance of ritual and how it facilitates the transition from the every day realm of existance to the spiritual realm. The latin, incense, chanting, stained glass, the vestments, and of course the organ combined with the ritual of the service provided an experience that was unique to worship and has been largely phased out of contemporary worship.
The argument that the church has to be more reflective of contemporary culture may be valid, but I would disagree that means ignoring historical musical culture.
You use the words "touch the heart". I believe what touches the heart are the associations one makes with whatever the stimulus, in this case music. If you are never exposed to anything but pop pablum, that is the only thing that can ever touch your heart. I have strong emotional connections with the hymns I heard and sang in my youth even though they sounded nothing like what was on the radio. I heard them in a unique setting of meditation, prayer and worship, and they still resonate within me today.
Cameron Carpenter has expressed the opinion that organs need to move out of the church, into the concert hall and other venues. I'm beginning to think he has a point. In any case he may get his wish.

[Snowbandit]

I ran across this comparison, hymns vs. contemporary music, on the web recently. How anybody can even listen to that stuff is beyond me.

[miaclockman]

Admin:
Thank you for your views and also supporting the fact that my posting is appropriate for this venue.

The one statement that stands out to me that I couldn't agree more with is that musicians think that people want to be "entertained". Any service is not a "show". In fact, when we had special pieces that were done as reflections after communion, we discouraged any applause explaining to the congregation that we had no intention to "entertain" but rather to edify the spiritual theme of that particular Sunday and the scripture readings that were reflected in the music. The people understood.

I've always said that cults are gaining popularity because we have lost a sense of "mystery" in worship. I'm not saying that the Catholic church in particular should revert back to pre-Vatican II with the Mass in Latin and the priest with his back to the congregation, but rather worship should have ritual, tradition, and reverence. So many of the churches have gone into almost a Pop culture which is tragic.

I was a seminarian for 5 years (4 college and 1 graduate school) and decided that the church was not moving in a direction that I thought that I could swallow and would be a miserable priest. So I left. When our choir was invited to Italy to perform several concerts and provide music at various churches including St. Peter's Basilica it was the most inspiring experience in my life. As a musician, I was sitting at the same consoles of some of the greatest musicians of all time.

But, I will NEVER forget when we were singing for Mass at St. Mark's Basilica in Venice, I remember looking around at the inspirational architecture, frescos, and parquetry that went into the edification of God and had a moment where I realized that these people who built these Basilicas did so out of faith and most never saw their completion because they took hundreds of years to build. Then I realized that I was actually sitting not more than a few hundred feet from the tomb of St. Mark! I never felt so small in the scheme of the universe as I did then. At the same time, I realized that I was a part of something much bigger and more important than myself. This is the awe and inspiration that I think has been lost over the years.

I, as well, have not been to church since the "Youth Choir" disbanded. There was a pastor who did nothing to edify or inspire the congregation and was surrounded by very nasty people including the Sunday morning choir director. They were a clicque of people who didn't understand what we were doing (and probably having a sense of infantile jealousy because their Masses were virtually empty). People flocked to our Mass because in my heart they could see that 1) there was a priest who was passionate in his sermons and created a sense of mystery and true spiritual awe and 2) no matter what piece of music that we chose, be it contemporary or traditional, we guided the congregation to learn that our sole purpose for being there as musicians was to give glory to God and not to "perform".

Though I am happily married for 29 years, if I were to do it over again, I would probably have been ordained and been a priest who inspired and guided the parishoners into spirituality rather than "feel good". Many have said that I should go back and become a permanent Deacon, but I feel that my hands would be tied as there are so few churches out there that have the makings of what is truly worship. It's really sad - I have a former classmate who lives in Ohio and has to travel to three different churches because there is no priest in those towns.

So, I remain close to God at home and treat people with respect and dignity. I give generously whenever I see someone in need in the knowledge that it will always come back to me. Musically, I hope to create some compositions that will inspire and bring back that sense of awe that I experienced in Italy.

Thank you for acknowledging my post and I hope that my words will sink into some music directors so that they realize the tremendous responsibility that they have to their calling.... and it is a calling - not a job.

[mashaffer]

Very well articulated and insightful.

I wish to offer some hope however. The church that we have been attending the last few months, and just recently joined, has proven to be an exception to the general course of the Christian Church in America. We chose this church, in part, precisely because there was a focus on worship in the true sense rather than the shallow, self focused, happy clappy "praise music" performance oriented event. Do they do everything exactly as I would prefer? Of course not but the orientation is toward glorifying God and learning more completely who he is. Our little choir has sung Mozart, Rutter, Macchi, and many other greater and lesser known composers from all eras including our own. The congregational singing includes Hymns from many different centuries as well as the better quality contemporary numbers and virtually always from printed music. There seems to be a genuine attempt to keep the entire service, including the music focused on the object of our worship rather than on the worshipers.

The preaching also was a factor as I found the Pastor's efforts to be not only biblically sound and well thought out but it was clear to me that it came from his heart as it had penetrated deeply into his heart in the first place. It is clear that he has a passion to know and understand God as deeply as possible and to pass on that passion and understanding to others. There is not so much a focus on topics as on exposition. Thorough understanding of the who and why makes the discernment of the what, how and when follow almost automatically, or at least with greater ease.

I too had almost lost hope for the Church moving forward but I am convinced that there is a remnant in many denominations that are coming to the realization that being relevant does not mean a church that looks just like the world. In fact such is the definition of irrelevance. That which is the same is of no relevance or consequence, rather it is in the collision of the church culture and the world's culture where relevance happens. To make a difference there must be a difference. Naturally if traditional elements are simply rote and devoid of understanding and intent then it too will be irrelevant, but when used as intended for instruction, edification and reflection they are, I am finding, nearly indispensable aids to growth.

Keep in mind that I am coming to much of this understanding late in life having lived many years with a near contempt for anything liturgical. It was in part my love of good music and the love of the organ that allowed me to open up to the possibility that I was missing the boat in some of these areas. This combined with a generally contemplative demeanor has brought me slowly to a still growing understanding of these things. May the Lord continue to teach and correct me in all these things and more.

mike

[Hamman]

Thought we could get our minds off this subject for just a moment ......and reflect on this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izh1q2gqThg

[miaclockman]

Sorry if this is repeated, but I think that I used the wrong link to respond to Hamman's posting. Thank you SO much for sharing that piece with all of us. I was so moved by the piece - it embodies all of the sensitivity and deep emotional response that can come from truly great music. It is the most beautiful piece that I have heard in a long time. I know that others will appreciate it as well. Thank you again for sharing it - it made my day!

MIACLOCKMAN

[miaclockman]

Snowbandit:
Thanks for sharing that comparison. However, there are ways to implement contemporary music in worship, but it has to be donewith EXTREME care and sensitivity to the essence of worship. I agree that most of them sound more like love songs than pieces that edify God. However, there is a handful of songs out there that, if the music director takes the time to make arrangements, are not guitar based. The pieces that we did at the "Youth Mass" were full orchestral arrangements with violins, oboes, cellos, organ, piano, bass, brass, etc. But, we had a director who took the time to create these orchestral arrangements and carefully chose them according to the scripture readings of the Sunday. In addition, they were not used for congregation participation, but rather were used as reflection pieces after communion. As I said before, we discouraged applause and explained to the congregation that this was worship and we did not do these pieces as a performance or for our edification - but rather to reiterate the scripture readings and to reach the heart and souls of the congregation as a reflection and meditation. Done properly, there is use for both. Sadly, I think that too many people (including we musicians) have to fight the black and white thinking because there are a million shades of grey and we must learn to make the pendulum swing to the middle-ground rather than either extreme (IMHO).

[CEB]

The funny thing is your thoughts on tossing out organs and replacing them with bands is the way many in my faith think of organs. :D

But our litgurgy dates back to the 5th century. Our Mass is the music with acapella Greek Byzantine hymns integrated within the liturgy.

[Snowbandit]

Snowbandit:
Thanks for sharing that comparison. However, there are ways to implement contemporary music in worship, but it has to be donewith EXTREME care and sensitivity to the essence of worship. I agree that most of them sound more like love songs than pieces that edify God. However, there is a handful of songs out there that, if the music director takes the time to make arrangements, are not guitar based. The pieces that we did at the "Youth Mass" were full orchestral arrangements with violins, oboes, cellos, organ, piano, bass, brass, etc. But, we had a director who took the time to create these orchestral arrangements and carefully chose them according to the scripture readings of the Sunday. In addition, they were not used for congregation participation, but rather were used as reflection pieces after communion. As I said before, we discouraged applause and explained to the congregation that this was worship and we did not do these pieces as a performance or for our edification - but rather to reiterate the scripture readings and to reach the heart and souls of the congregation as a reflection and meditation. Done properly, there is use for both. Sadly, I think that too many people (including we musicians) have to fight the black and white thinking because there are a million shades of grey and we must learn to make the pendulum swing to the middle-ground rather than either extreme (IMHO).

I am not questioning the ability of someone to create a "contemporary" hymn, one that actually says something. But what is currently passing in our culture as "contemporary music" amounts to little more than mindless diddies designed for performance by amature garage bands to the wild adulation of a musically inept audience. The youth choir (teenage) at our church performed one of these once several years ago. There was nothing inherently wrong with the handful of words that were simply repeated over and over but it was certainly theologically lacking. There was so much hell raised over that mess I doubt it will happen again. We all need to put our foot down hard and demand either better new music or bring the old back. We get what we allow.

[matmilne]

This has been coming for over a hundred years, sadly. Rising costs, meets declining congregations coupled with poor maintenance and general neglect, meets declining education standards and selfish short sightedness.

These all work against the physical pipe organ.

[miaclockman]

One correction to this original posting - the church had a seating capacity of 1,000 - not 7,000. But it still speaks volumes by virtue of the fact that people were spilling out into the foyer/vestibule and standing along the walls.
I would also like to say that I have a great deal of respect for a friend of 30 years who worked with me from time to time at various churches and was the director of the Youth Choir. Despite a heavy schedule as a physician/surgeon, he wrote parts for musicians and had the intuition and liturgical/musical sense to create that balance of music as it applied to the scriptures of each Sunday. People like him are rare and pastors need to wake up and start paying liveable wages for competent musicians (as well as people who have a sense of worship) rather than depend on "volunteers" who may or may not have any training. Otherwise, I believe that churches will still continue to empty out which is tragic.
Christ had passion and fire to spread the word - he was far from mediocre. Unfortunately, we have too many seminaries that are turning out mediocrity out of desperation. The saying rings true that "many are called but few are chosen".

[paulj0557]

I found this video tonight. An exceptional Hammond player and wow what a nice sounding organ. Consider the time in history we are watching here. What model Hammond is he playing? That lower manual sounds very chorus like.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/E8yoJ7sFseo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Dogstar]

With all due respect I would suggest that most pastors in my experience have little control over what is paid to church musicians. I pastored a small Baptist church for twelve years until I retired. They barely had enough Money to pay me. My wife was the musician until she died. After that I learned to lead singing without instruments of any kind. I am learning organ now for my own pleasure and possibly to help out in my present church if I ever get good enough. Seems to me that one of the major problems facing the churches is a lack of desire among many to discipline themselves or their children to get away from the computer or tv long enough to get a musical education. Further to that a tendency to write off anything that was not written in the last thirty or so years as not worth listening to.

[Havoc]

I guess they said the same when they tossed Gregorian out and put polyphony and organs in the church. Thing is we don't live in the past and society changes. Worst thing is you shouldn't even judge this.

Sorry, but I don't think believe, religion and organised church should be considered equal. Music might be part of a tradition but in se it has not much to do with the reason people believe or go to church. Only musicians think it is so.

[davidecasteel]

Music may not be the reason that people go to church, but it may be a deciding factor as to just WHICH church people go to.

David

[Snowbandit]

The more I learn of organs, organists and church politics, the more I've come to understand the importance of paying the musicians. Volunteer organists have little or no incentive to learn new skills and often don't even bother to practice from week to week. They create for themselves a little fiefdom centered around the organ and woe to anyone that tries to usurp their position. Any church that wants to have, and continue to have in the future, a viable music program which includes the most difficult of all instruments needs to actively seek and promote younger candidates.

[RayE]

I agree that it is important in most cases to pay an organist, but there are some out there playing who do it to give back to their church and thier God, and don't ask for or require monetary pay to give them incentive to practice. To imply that a volunteer organist is less inclined to do their best because they aren't getting paid is an insult to those selfless musicians who choose to volunteer their time. I'm not knocking paying organist here, there are many fine organists out there who deserve every penny they are paid, and it is a great thing for a church to support church music by paying a competant organist. I just take offense to the notion that someone that volunteers is less motivated to do thier best because they aren't being paid. Volunteers play because music is their avocation something they love to do, they don't need pay to motivate them to do what they do. For the many small churches out there that are struggling to keep the doors open, the hobyist musician that volunteers their time is a God send. I am defiantely not saying that volunteers are superior to payed musicians some are better than others, just as some paid organists are better than others. What I'm saying is that the volunteer organist should be given credit for making sure that the organs in their parishes are actually being played and not sitting there in disuse.

[Hamman]

I'm a volunteer organist for our church for 5 years now and its my worship to God as I see it. I also feel a awesome responsibility to be practiced up and prepared to help lead the congregation into worship. Something I don't take lightly! If other musicians are getting paid....to me thats between them, the church official(s) and God. I have no judgement whatsoever on their arrangement. I can only answer for my self as to what my motivations are. Volunteers can have as much premadonna pride as anyone else including some higher educated paid organist. That again is something that God will be the ultimate judge of. I look at my talent as what God has blessed me with...... so to me using it for his glory is the least I can do.

[AllanP]

Some organists earn their living playing the organ and teaching students. They need to be paid in order to eat and pay rent. Others earn their living othe rways and play the organ for the pure enjoyment of making music, these can be volunteers.

[Havoc]

Music may not be the reason that people go to church, but it may be a deciding factor as to just WHICH church people go to.

Probably correct, but does that matter for any other reason than bragging rights?

[Snowbandit]

You guys are right, of course, and I was quite harsh in my treatment of volunteer organists. There are many wonderful church organists who use their talents for the glory of God and expect nothing in return. Many diligently practice and finance their own training too. A church, having one of these fine folks, is truly blessed. Sadly, and all too often, there is another side to that coin that's equally valid. It's the side with the primadonnas, those who have taken ownership of the church organ and don't allow anyone else to touch it. I just came home from church where I was treated to the "organist" banging away on the piana like it was Saturday night in the dance hall, leaving the pipe organ to rot. She gave away her home practice organ years ago and only has the piano for practice anymore so that's what we get. No one else better ever touch "her" organ though. We have talented young people in the church, music teachers and others who should be stepping up and learning the instrument but no one wants to cross her. I forgot, they're not all like that.

[Dogstar]

Folks definitely move because of the music in churches. Our church has recently had individuals move in from another church where the music director/pastor had publicly declared that the pipe organ needed to go to the dump. Praise band was the way to go. Nothing to brag about just fact of life in these days. Regarding my previous comments re. Music of the past few years. It was not intended as some kind of judgement, rather simply an observation. Sadly it seems as though folks are not exposed to much in the way of "older" music anymore. I don't know about where some of you folks live, but try finding a classical station on your car radio these days. Just about an impossibility where I live. Rock, Rap, and country. That's about it.

[jdoc]

just saw a free pipe organ in SW Ontario on kijiji, guess what instruments were on the platform beside it........drums, keyboard, guitar

[indianajo]

I don't know about where some of you folks live, but try finding a classical station on your car radio these days. Just about an impossibility where I live. Rock, Rap, and country. That's about it.
Noticed a lack on the car radio between Chattanooga and Atlanta last year. I couldn't believe there aren't enough people in Atlanta to buy one of those simulcast "contemporary Christian" "educational" stations and put some decent music on the FM band. As if everybody let Sirius/XM radio tap into their veins via credit card. Not that I don't like good contemporary Christian. But the seven-eleven description michaelhoddy used pretty much describes what they play. I'm glad contemporary is drawing in the young people in our church, but it is a pity they limit themselves to porridge.

[SubBase]

This example of a dying church, edifice and magnificent PO is a heartbreaker:
http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/AllSaintsRC.html
A friend of mine has been trying to raise awareness about the organ there, but with the congregation dwindling to 50, the decision has apparently been made to mothball the building, which alone needs 16 million in restoration, let alone what it would take to restore the last Roosevelt ever built.
Casey

[Dogstar]

just saw a free pipe organ in SW Ontario on kijiji, guess what instruments were on the platform beside it........drums, keyboard, guitar

Are you going to get it? :->

[Juniper]

Things like the state of music might also depend on the region you live in. Here in New England I think very few churches have neglected their organs, and most of them are very well taken care of and used regularly. The traditional music is much more alive, and a lot of new works are used (not contemporary hymns, but well elaborated new compositions for SATB and organ).

Having said all that. I find that in RC churches (which are the ones I am involved in) have at least 1 of their 5 or 6 masses that uses contemporary music. Even the church where I am music director has a mass like that. While I use organ and play traditional Christian and Catholic hymns in those masses, I use the piano for the contemporary mass, and generally try and stay with the traditional Christian and Catholic music while adding very carefully selected contemporary hymns. Most contemporary hymns are terrible, but there are a few (VERY few) that are actually worth doing every so often for this contemporary mass. In addition, to avoid breaking out from tradition, I reharmonize some of the traditional hymns to give them a new-ish flavor. The pastor really wants this to happen and wants us to have a diverse music program. Please don't insult me or any of this though, because despite all that, I push for traditional in the other masses, and I don't think its so terrible to have one mass be contemporary, as long as you get it right. The problem is, most directors have no idea how to run a contemporary music mass without it being a concert. It still MUST serve the liturgy and not itself. I think contemporary gets a bad rep for this reason alone. Again, the rest of the masses are mostly traditional and Catholic music with organ.

Also, is it impossible to think that some traditional hymn tunes that have been reused for so long aren't necessarily great or worn out their time? There are a lot of great traditional hymns, but then there are some traditional hymns that should really disappear; that have a horrible melody or very bland harmonization. I think that certain hymns like that don't help worship either. I am abstaining from naming hymn names. By natural selection, most of the best hymn tunes have lived on all the way to this age, but there are a select few that I am astonished have lasted this long and still get regularly sung in churches.

Now going into a different area of this topic; that is: organists. I think a lot of the older organists (not all) are very bland and old fashioned in the way they play hymns. And before anyone starts complaining that hymns should be played as they always have been, keep in your mind the fact that Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven are now played in ways far different than the composers originally had imagined, which is not a bad thing. I was fortunate to have organ teachers and mentors who had a very vibrant way of playing the organ, particularly traditional hymns, but I have also heard obnoxiously boring organists play almost out of routine because they are playing the hymn for the 13806th time and are doing it almost like a zombie; playing in their sleep. I'm only 24, and I'm no authority figure on how hymns or organs should be played, but I am trying to put myself in the congregant's perspective. You have to give them some energy to make them want to sing the hymns. And as for the younger congregants; I'm convinced they can come to love the organ if more organist play hymns more vibrantly, as well as love traditional hymns, whether that be in the tempo, the registration, or the way the director asks the singers or choir to sing.

[Hamman]

I agree with that statement and will go on to say that alot of them play such Hymns without a smooth flow....more like a pianist trying to play the organ. My observation, though, are the church organist who play on youtube.

Now going into a different area of this topic; that is: organists. I think a lot of the older organists (not all) are very bland and old fashioned in the way they play hymns. And before anyone starts complaining that hymns should be played as they always have been, keep in your mind the fact that Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven are now played in ways far different than the composers originally had imagined, which is not a bad thing. I was fortunate to have organ teachers and mentors who had a very vibrant way of playing the organ, particularly traditional hymns, but I have also heard obnoxiously boring organists play almost out of routine because they are playing the hymn for the 13806th time and are doing it almost like a zombie; playing in their sleep. I'm only 24, and I'm no authority figure on how hymns or organs should be played, but I am trying to put myself in the congregant's perspective. You have to give them some energy to make them want to sing the hymns. And as for the younger congregants; I'm convinced they can come to love the organ if more organist play hymns more vibrantly, as well as love traditional hymns, whether that be in the tempo, the registration, or the way the director asks the singers or choir to sing.

[ClergetMusic]

One of my favorite quotes is from the pastor of the church I am music director for: "When you sing or play music, you're helping people pray." I have used this with several of my students to wish to sing or play for Mass, but they choose songs that are not appropriate: it helps them understand why they must choose appropriate literature.

[davidecasteel]

DogStar, we are blessed here in Dallas, Texas to have WRR, a city-owned FM radio station devoted to Classical music. It also carries the City Council meetings and various other public service messages. It can be heard on-line at WRR101.com.

Juniper, it has been my observation over the various editions of the Methodist/UMC Hymnals that it is the interesting (and therefore more difficult, but beautiful) hymn tunes that get eliminated. Not only that, most of the remaining ones now don't ask the sopranos to sing beyond C above middle C (which puts the tenors into baritone/bass territory--I have to sing alto, or even soprano). I long for the church of my youth--we sang wonderful anthems written by old dead white guys, hymns written by excellent poets and that had substance to their texts, and tunes with excellent harmonies. Now we get this horrible 7-11 crap (7 words 11 times, and in unison). Hymns were intended to be either an embodiment of Scripture, used as a teaching method, or an exposition of Scriptural truth (also a teaching event). Most of the new stuff is just praise music (not itself a bad thing, but hardly sufficient) with little content other than "God is great, isn't He/She?"

The UMC has even stopped capitalizing the pronouns used to refer to God, now. And has removed almost all references to "He and Him" from wherever they appeared. It is apparently not good enough that Jesus (who they cannot deny was a male) always referred to God as his Father (and literally was so, via conception through the Holy Spirit) for the church to continue using male terms to reference God. PC--Bah!

David

[gwizz777]

One of my favorite quotes is from the pastor of the church I am music director for: "When you sing or play music, you're helping people pray." I have used this with several of my students to wish to sing or play for Mass, but they choose songs that are not appropriate: it helps them understand why they must choose appropriate literature.

Appropriate for who??? You??? You people can't make people fit in your little box. Things change...praise bands love and worship God too. You don't have the right to tell others how they are to worship God. You people are fighting a battle you can't win. open your eyes to the wonderful world of music in this frame of time. Your musice is your god!!!!

[Austin766]

Appropriate for who??? You??? You people can't make people fit in your little box. Things change...praise bands love and worship God too. You don't have the right to tell others how they are to worship God. You people are fighting a battle you can't win. open your eyes to the wonderful world of music in this frame of time. Your musice is your god!!!!

For one thing there is liturgical appropriateness, secondly some secular music is appropriate for a sacred occasion, but much of it isn't. We may be fighting a battle, but it is a battle worth fighting, much of the praise band music has no substance theologically. I find the praise songs so empty and devoid of meaning, to me they are banalities that I am forced to endure on the rare occasions that I must hear them. I know I may be old before my time, but I will gladly take the interesting and difficult hymns any day of the week, and twice on Sundays (sometimes literally twice on Sundays, but that's irrelevant).

David, the Episcopalians do still capitalize God, and we have a good hymnal, and even though there are a few hymns in the Hymnal 1982 that I would miss, I would love to go back to the Hymnal 1940 (supplements I & II optional). Of course, I also would like to leave behind the 1979 Book of Common Prayer and return to the 1928 BCP. The Hymnal 1982 ditched a tremendous number of hymns and hymn tunes from the Hymnal 1940, now mind you, I grew up on the 1982 (I'm only in my early 20s), so I never knew the Hymnal 1940, but I did become more familiar with it last year when my friend challenged me to pick out several hymns a week for him to sight read (I cheated by the rules and used the liturgical index!)

[davidecasteel]

Well, I'm 75 years old and have been singing in choirs since I was 9. Even as a child the choirs I was part of sang Bach ("My Heart Ever Faithful" and "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring") and some part work. The congregation sang out of hymnals and quite a few sang in parts. When I joined my current church 32 years ago, the situation was still pretty much the same (although we had wretched acoustics--deader than a doornail) and the choir sang good music (written by old dead white Europeans). Things have changed. Although our Music Library contains 1000 pieces, many of them excellent classics by the old masters, we don't sing any of them any more. I don't think we have sung anything composed earlier than 1990 in the last several years, and we tend to sing the same blockbuster anthems over and over again. One exception is the Hallelujah! chorus from Messiah! We do sing it once in a while (and will again at all services Easter Sunday--even the Youth Choir wants to do it this year).

Our congregation applauds after anthems they like (typically loud, showy ones), and never fails to applaud the children. This absolutely disgusts me. The only good thing about it is that they are usually not moved to applause by a truly reflective and meditative anthem and so don't always spoil the mood by clapping. I grew up at a time and place where applause was just not done in church, and I still don't like it. It is especially bad to do it for the children, because it gives them the idea that they are performing, like in a concert, and not participating in worship. When I was a child in choir, we were impressed with the idea that we were singing for God and to help the congregation relate to Him, not performing for acclaim for ourselves. I believe this is still a good concept and the practice in my church (and most others, I think) of applauding the music is inappropriate.

I have many friends in my church--I've been there for 32 years, after all. However, I am enough dissatisfied with the musical atmosphere there that I am almost moved to seek a church with more traditional views of music and congregational deportment. Alas, I doubt that there remains even one UMC in the area that meets that requirement (well, maybe one, but its a long commute). I may have to try Anglican or Presbyterian (I know of a couple that might work).

Now you know. Or, at least, have your suspicions confirmed. I am a troglodyte Traditionalist and don't like modern music. I will admit there are a few (few!) contemporary numbers I have liked, but not most. There are a lot of recent recastings of old words into new tunes. I don't see any improvement by having done so, and the harmonizations are usually inferior (if, indeed, they aren't just unison settings). My church projects the hymn (song) texts on screens so folks don't even have to use a hymnal (which is very inconspicuously located under the pews in front of them) and therefore any who might have an interest in singing parts have nothing to guide them readily to hand. Most kids today are not taught anything but popular music and don't learn part singing, either. This has been going on long enough now that older adults are not used to singing in parts. All the hymns have been lowered as much as a third because singers aren't able to hit the higher notes. As a high tenor, I have to sing alto or even the soprano line because the tenor lines are more suited to basses. (There are very few hymns any more that have the melody line sing above a C.)

Now that I've gotten all that off my mind, I'll just go and sulk.

David

[davidecasteel]

Oh, the UMC still capitalizes "God", just not the pronouns that represent Him. I discussed this very topic with one of our ministers (female) and she asked me if it were that important to me that God be male. My response to her was that it apparently had been important to Jesus. I guess I have to take comfort that the church hasn't (yet) changed the Lord's Prayer to begin "Our parent....".

gwizz777, you say I can't make everyone fit in my little box, that I can't tell others how to worship God. You say that things change. Yes, they do, and all changes are not improvements. You shouldn't be able to make me worship the way you want to, either, but that is happening in my church. Although we have a pure Contemporary service now, with all the band and bells and whistles (it takes them 5 hours to reconfigure the Sanctuary for the service), and our 0845 service served by the Youth is Blended, our "Traditional" services are now all essentially Blended, too. We usually only have 2 hymns, and often one of those is a modern one with little Biblical content. Our response after the Benediction is a vapid Praise Chorus, and we sing an anthem by an Old Master maybe twice a year--everything else has been composed since 1990 and we sing the same 20 repeatedly (always to loud applause--another thing that drives me wild!). Church musicians are not supposed to be "performing" for acclaim--we are providing music to lead people to God, and applause often destroys the very mood we are trying to achieve. Not to mention that clapping for the children gives them the wrong idea about what they are doing: they are not performing in a concert, they are singing as an act of worship and that is not the message applause sends to them.

Rant off.

David

[Nullifier]

I mostly agree with David about the condition of music in churches. One other that bothers me so much is the volume of sound in most churches today. Most think they HAVE to had a sound board and the bloomin' soundboard usually is way too loud. I went to a Christmas concert at a huge church four miles from our house and when I left I felt my ears had been raped by the excessive volume. Everyone that went with me felt the same way. Somebody needs to get a clue. Shortly after we started attending our present church a drum set appeared and drums were used on every hymn. I was just ready to tell the MM what I really thought about the drums then suddenly the drums were gone I'll be willing to bet there was more than one other similar opinion!!

[mashaffer]

Well, I'm 75 years old and have been singing in choirs since I was 9. Even as a child the choirs I was part of sang Bach ("My Heart Ever Faithful" and "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring") and some part work. The congregation sang out of hymnals and quite a few sang in parts. When I joined my current church 32 years ago, the situation was still pretty much the same (although we had wretched acoustics--deader than a doornail) and the choir sang good music (written by old dead white Europeans). Things have changed. Although our Music Library contains 1000 pieces, many of them excellent classics by the old masters, we don't sing any of them any more. I don't think we have sung anything composed earlier than 1990 in the last several years, and we tend to sing the same blockbuster anthems over and over again. One exception is the Hallelujah! chorus from Messiah! We do sing it once in a while (and will again at all services Easter Sunday--even the Youth Choir wants to do it this year).

We came our current (EPC) church from a Missionary Church which would qualify as a Mega Church at least by local standards. They had a light contemporary service and a Gex X, Y, Z or whatever we are up to now. Our first Sunday at our new church we (the little choir of about 8-15 voices) sang Mozart. I was pretty sure at that point that we had found a home. We use music from many time periods and styles but always quality compositions and typically well aimed toward the appropriate worship of God for the service at hand. We have the overhead but also announce the hymn numbers so those wishing to use the hymnal can do so.


Our congregation applauds after anthems they like (typically loud, showy ones), and never fails to applaud the children. This absolutely disgusts me. The only good thing about it is that they are usually not moved to applause by a truly reflective and meditative anthem and so don't always spoil the mood by clapping. I grew up at a time and place where applause was just not done in church, and I still don't like it. It is especially bad to do it for the children, because it gives them the idea that they are performing, like in a concert, and not participating in worship. When I was a child in choir, we were impressed with the idea that we were singing for God and to help the congregation relate to Him, not performing for acclaim for ourselves. I believe this is still a good concept and the practice in my church (and most others, I think) of applauding the music is inappropriate.

This has been a concern of mine also and even at our new church applause is the practice typically. At least we have been able to convince the director that the choir ought not bow afterward. :) At this point I don't think it makes sense in our situation to make a big deal of this but I do agree that it is problematic for the reasons you mention.


I have many friends in my church--I've been there for 32 years, after all. However, I am enough dissatisfied with the musical atmosphere there that I am almost moved to seek a church with more traditional views of music and congregational deportment. Alas, I doubt that there remains even one UMC in the area that meets that requirement (well, maybe one, but its a long commute). I may have to try Anglican or Presbyterian (I know of a couple that might work).

It can work out. I understand the reluctance to leave as I have had do deal with it in my own journey. The main thing for me was solid doctrine and teaching along with an atmosphere where God was the focus rather than the congregants. I was pleasantly surprised that I was able to find an acceptable mix, and quite quickly. In the end it is not so much a matter of musical taste but a matter of focus.


Now you know. Or, at least, have your suspicions confirmed. I am a troglodyte Traditionalist and don't like modern music. I will admit there are a few (few!) contemporary numbers I have liked, but not most. There are a lot of recent recastings of old words into new tunes. I don't see any improvement by having done so, and the harmonizations are usually inferior (if, indeed, they aren't just unison settings). My church projects the hymn (song) texts on screens so folks don't even have to use a hymnal (which is very inconspicuously located under the pews in front of them) and therefore any who might have an interest in singing parts have nothing to guide them readily to hand. Most kids today are not taught anything but popular music and don't learn part singing, either. This has been going on long enough now that older adults are not used to singing in parts. All the hymns have been lowered as much as a third because singers aren't able to hit the higher notes. As a high tenor, I have to sing alto or even the soprano line because the tenor lines are more suited to basses. (There are very few hymns any more that have the melody line sing above a C.)

Now that I've gotten all that off my mind, I'll just go and sulk.

David

If you start a Troglodyte Traditionalist Society can I be a member too? As a contrabass myself I have no problem with the lower keys (our hymnal tends that way too) but as an organist I have to ask why they must put a song in "A" when "A-flat" would do just as well? :D

mike

[gwizz777]

It doesn't really matter what you like or what I like. Times are changing and simpley by attrition, the contemporary structure will take over. I play the b3 and have no desire to play pipe. My hammond sits next to the pipe organ. My dear, older music teacher plays pipes on hymns and I play hammond on the other music. Synths and other keyboards will be the norm in a very few years. Why ??? Most of todays kids would rather play video games vs. keyboards.

[davidecasteel]

All is not totally lost. My church has an 18 yo who is an accomplished classical organist and is working on his Doctorate in nuclear physics. He's a great kid who sings in the Sanctuary Choir and plays handbells in 2 groups. He is an excellent pianist and we make very good use of his talents.

David

[mashaffer]

I too have seen glimmers of hope that at least some of the young have become disenchanted with the current drift. Not counting any chickens yet but all is not lost yet.

mike

[Austin766]

Can I join your Troglodyte Society? I'm a baritone, so if we get another tenor, we could have a TTBB quartet! I think that slowly the pendulum is shifting away from serving up so much drek in services, but it is a slow movement (maybe a largo, maybe an adagio - it's hard to say).
I sing with a madrigal/early music group on Sunday nights, and as a warm-up, we will usually sing a handful of hymns from the old Hiram College hymnal (although, to be perfectly frank, I suspect that there were thousands just like it printed only changing the name on the front of the book), and we're forever pitching things lower, or moving things closer to the original, original key.

[JamKar]

@Austin766 , I think we could use some humor here. Bit of creativity is always welcomed by congregations. I have posted here before about the praise band that I am in. Our United Methodist Church offers a traditional early service, and a blended late service. Blended seems to work for our congregation because the choir still does a traditional hymn, but the praise band (of which I play organ/synth/elect. piano) performs a few contemporary songs in our own arrangements. I am seeing the term
"Emerging Worship" services more and more. BTW my vocal range is Baritone/Tenor, so I frequently join in the singing.

[ClergetMusic]

Appropriate for who??? You??? You people can't make people fit in your little box. Things change...praise bands love and worship God too. You don't have the right to tell others how they are to worship God. You people are fighting a battle you can't win. open your eyes to the wonderful world of music in this frame of time. Your musice is your god!!!!

I see they come out of the woodwork quickly. Notice how I didn't say that the music was inappropriate for church in general, but that it what was assumed by the person who so eloquently had to lambaste me with his self-righteousness. What I was referring to is a selection such as this: "Ave Maria" (Dan Kantor), for the recessional hymn. Or possibly "Canticle of the Turning" for the Preparation of the Gifts. Or possibly "Itsy-Bitsty Spider" for post-communion reflection. That is what I meant by inappropriate. Be careful that you do not prejudge those whom you are accusing of prejudice. Notice that I said nothing about praise band music in the post that was so quickly derided. Open your own mind to the fact that not all of us are against you.

[CEB]

I too have seen glimmers of hope that at least some of the young have become disenchanted with the current drift. Not counting any chickens yet but all is not lost yet.

mike

We see it a lot now. The Church is growing in the US. People who are disenchanted by the evolution of the faith in the West have began turning to Orthodoxy in greater numbers. 15 years ago our church was comprised mostly of Eastern immigrants or decendants of Greek and Russian immigrant families. Now it is probably a 50/50 split between that segment and people of Western heritage. Soon those of Western Heritage are going to be the vast majority if things continue as they are currently heading in the midwest.

I hear in the Northeast this is not necessarily the case.

[Hamman]

uh hmmm....I attend a Pentecostal church and play a B3...(A-105) there. But!!! recently started playing the older anthem hymns (Baptist....not AG of which I belong) and the amount of older folks that started coming up to me and saying they sure enjoyed that is overwhelming. I have taken on the liking of classical organ and especially the older church organ (pipe or electronical pipe) sound. This is after 30+ years of swearing by Gospel (black style) music. I really can see the presence of both genres, or all, in praise and worship. The hard part is you will most likely only find a church liking one or the other. Now grant it my church will never, in the foreseeable future, consider a request from me to get a good used Allen or Rodgers or whatever classical sounding organ even if they were flooded with money. Which they aren't but could afford one. So I have learned on certain Hymns how to set the Hammond drawbars to get that "High Anthem" sound. The people love it....but the Gospel sound of the Hammond will always win there because of the type of songs and rhythms we do. I too, use to be a contemporary song hater....literally HATER, but since learning a few, have since come to enjoy a few of them....especially the ones that seem to have true worship to them....not the 7/11 ones. Contemporary music today seems to be doing anything and everything to be like the world......something we were told not to be.

Conclusion: In my case a good theater organ....like my Conn 651 would be a good candidate for xover style....I can squeeze a more realistic "classical" sound out of it then a Hammond yet with all the Tibia stop choices on it, come real close to a Hammond ( Gospel) sound (yes with Leslies attached)

[davidecasteel]

I can agree with your situation, Hamman. There are some "modern" anthems and hymns that I like, too (but not a great many). My dissatisfaction comes principally because we almost never use any of the earlier 600 years of outstanding church music that we have in our library. I've been told that our choir has grown enough that we don't have enough copies of those older anthems, but I have repeatedly told the Music Director that I will personally pay for any additional copies we might need in order to sing them. He is just not interested. About twice a year he pulls out something more than 20 years old for us to sing--I think just to keep me from breaking ranks and jumping ship to another, more Traditional, venue. We have recently had several new tenors join the choir (and had 12 singing last night for Maundy Thursday); I may not be as desirable, now (I can be a PITA--no choir director wants to piss off his tenors).

David

[mashaffer]

Hamman, you do have a point that the tendency of any particular congregation seems to be to go all one way or the other. In my last church about the only way we could get a hymn (once every couple of months or so) is if they either re-harmonized it making it nearly impossible to sing unless you were extremely good at detecting chord structures by ear and on the fly.

In my current church we do mostly hymns but also use some more modern songs (mostly included in our hymnal). One thing that I have done to keep things interesting is to use Gospel type registrations and embellishments (such as walking bass, added 6ths, passing tones etc) in moderation but enough to give it a little swing. I get a lot of favorable comments. The trick is to keep it within the bounds of "singability" and having a feel for not pushing the envelope beyond what is tasteful. It is also helpful that things that ought not to be "jazzed up", like "A Mighty Fortress", are played appropriately. Thankfully we have been successful in avoiding the truly vacuous stuff.

mike