Allen ADC-320. What's wrong with this picture?

[rodenstock01]

Brief description....nice little compact theatre-style console circa 1984, early digitalwith better than average interrnal sound,very resonantflutes, pretty good 8' diapason but kind of mediocre reeds and strings, "kitchy" rhythm section,combination stops etc.Pretty though and cosmetically inperfect shape, not even any scuffs on the pedalboard.</P>


Talked with the seller aboutitsome 8 or 9 months ago but lost interest in it. Saw the organ reappear today in the paper so I went out, this time with a check in hand, ready to buy it.</P>


So here's the deal...Seller is a car salesman that refurbishes Steinways. Ended up having to buy theorgan for $3500 a few years ago to get one of the Steinways. Tells me he had the organ appraised at $5000 and that it's about 15 years old???!!</P>


I played the organ a bit, then opened the bench, pulled out the user's manual (copyright 1984) and carefully explainedthe correct facts about the organ's age and estimated the value to be a little over $1000 and gave him a starting offer of$1250 for it.</P>


The seller gets real mad at me and tells me my offer isn't even close to the selling price asthe resale value on his Steinways is considerable higher than his cost and he won't deal that way.Of course I tell him that an organ is a whole different ball game. He leads me to the door and saysthe organ is in such fine shape that it's "barely out of it's wrapper" and he doesn't want to hear anything more about it!</P>


I can never tell these things? Is it just me? What am I missing? Should I call him back with a better price? Are there people really willing to pay $3000 for a 25 year old organ with Sputnik-era electronics? Plus, we're in a recession, I thought. If those people are out there and I undervalued the organ please let me know. Maybe I have to change my thinking. Thanks. Eric</P>
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[jbird604]

Eric,</P>


A used organ is only worthwhatever pricethe seller and buyer can agree upon.... No authentic Blue Book value, as with used cars. (Yes, I know there is or was an "Organ Blue Book" publication, but really, used organs are not bought and sold like other merchandise any more and any such publication would be nothing more than the roughest kind of price guide.)</P>


Personally, I wouldn't givemuch more than you offered forthat organ, certainly not $5K! If I'm not mistaken, that organ didn't even cost $10K when it was brand new, and whoever appraised it for him at $5K was very optimistic, to say the least!</P>


You might send the guy a letter (or email) -- I wouldn't call him if he's as hostile as he sounds -- and kindly and humblyoffer to give a certain amount for the organ in the event that he's unable to sell it for his asking price. Just offer what you really think you want to give for it, and let him take it or leave it. If he needs to move it and needs some cash, and if he has no other takers,he'll eventually let you have it. If he doesn't really care whether he sells it or not, then you don't need to be dealing with him anyway!</P>


Otherwise, if you are in need of an organ right now, check out some of the fine values that are mentioned from time to time on ebay. Check out that thread and then do your own searching on ebay or craigslist. There are organs out there that are not overpriced or in the hands of oddballs who don't really want to sell them!</P>


John</P>
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[rodenstock01]

Hi John. Thanks. I realize there isn't any blue book out there but any thoughts on what a fair market price would be on the organ. There's really nothing to be found on craigslist or ebay within reasonable driving distance from here. There are only a couple of local dealers and they're even worse on pricing for used instruments. I find that sellers, whether they are in the business or private parties they are always knocking off 10 to 20 years on the actual age of the organ so when I present an offer that's based on how old the organ really is, and of course, tell them that's the reason for the offer they are more than likely to show me the door. You would think the car dealer would know better than anyone that you wouldn't use the same schedule of depreciation to price a car that was 25 years old vs. one that was 10. But he didn't want to speak that language with me. Wondering where sellersget their information from. Maybe there should be some standard way of calculating price to keep things honest.

[jbird604]

Eric,</P>


Under the circumstances, you might be willing to paymore than the average price for that organ -- it's apparently super clean, near mint condition, and it's right there in your area, potentially saving youa large amountin moving costs.</P>


If you were to buy a similar organ from an individual hundreds of miles away, you might expect to spend, who knows, maybe $1000 or more getting it brought to you. So, if it's exactly what you're looking for and is in as good condition as you think, maybe it's worth $2500 or evenmore -- to you, at least. I'd suggest that you offer the guy what you think it's really worth TO YOU, as opposed to what similar organs seem to be selling for in other places.</P>


Now, my prices are an entirely different thing, so this may have little bearing on the value of that particular organ. I sell a used organ now and then to a church in my area, and my general rule is that I can't afford to sell much of anything for less than $5000. And that is about what I get for almost any decent used Allen or Rodgers church organ. Slightly less for a Baldwin or for a minimal installation. Slightly more for a really nice one, especially 3 manuals, and more yet for one with several speakers and wiring that has to be run.</P>


But my prices include delivery, complete installation and setup, tuning, voicing, instruction, and even a warranty. So if this guy is offering any of these things,a higher than averageprice is justified. If he's offering none of this, he'sasking too much.</P>


What I'm trying to say is that the "value" of an organ depends more on what you're getting with it (delivery/install/warranty/etc.) than on the mere physical components, which in themselves have little value at the age of 25 years. That's why a lot of 25-year-old church organs are free for the hauling these days.</P>


I'm beginning to repeat myself and talk in circles, so I'll quit now..... Maybe this makes some sense to you. Hope it helps.</P>


John</P>
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[myorgan]

It's not you. Unfortunately, someone has led the seller to have unreasonable expectations, which makes it much harder for you to get what you need. You were more than fair.</P>


I'd follow John's advice, and make an offer for what you are willing to pay if no one else takes it off his hands (they probably won't). It may take some time, but you may end up with the organ you wanted.</P>


Keep us posted!</P>


Michael</P>

[rodenstock01]

Thanks John and Michael for the words of advice. I will write a note, waitand go to see him again next week. The dimensions and condition of the organ are really right for me. For the reasons you mentioned I am more interested in it now than months ago. Delivery and setup were not included the first time I met the seller. But I think for $2250, maybe $2500 it will have to close the deal. Let you know how it goes. Cheers.

[circa1949]

Well first of all, I'd be scared to buy a Steinway from a car salesman who "refurbishes" them. </p>

The piano and organ used markets are highly illiquid, and thus, within the "local" market, you really don't have the upper hand against an obstinate, (and might I add, ignorant) seller. If someone is trying to sell a Toyota Tercel for $5000 when there are 3 other Tercels for an average of $300, nobody, and I mean nobody, will buy the $5000 Tercel. But cars are (for something so large) a relatively liquid market - heck they even transport themselves if they work! For example in one of the wealthiest suburbs of DC is a little piano shop selling the cr-ppiest no-name Chinese pianos for ridiculous prices. Anybody who KNOWS BETTER can drive 1 hour to Rick Jones piano and buy a used Yamaha for the same price that will be a 5X better piano. But they get just enough of the stupid, rich, and having more money than they know what to do with types that somehow they survive while 1/2 of the other piano stores in the DC area (and country for that matter) are going out of business. (and honestly, this one might have gone out of biz by now...I don't visit that town very often)</p>

So as an educated customer, you are this jerk's worst enemy. His last name doesn't rhyme with prune does it? I once had a rough email exchange with some idiot who insisted his ADC4000 was worth $12K. Well, someone on this board just bought a better ADC-4300 for $1K, which shows where the real wholesale values are now. Since this a superior if not vastly superior instrument to an ADC320, the real wholesale value of that one is probably $600 or so at most. (I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest used &lt; MDS theatre organs have a rather lower resale value, because the TO demographic is even smaller than the classical organ demographic. After all, not many churches want a theater organ. And the theater organ sound was way less convicing until the MDS era...or so I've heard)</p>

I think the game is already up on used organs. The miniscule # of people shopping for one already know their real values...there could be a few suckers left out there, but not many. I'd love a used piano and I think that's where the going is still good in this "line of business." If you look at the overall cultural trends - for example quality digital pianos being so cheap and so available - I just can't believe there aren't so many used grand pianos out there anymore you could cover over the state of Delaware with them. Every upper-middle class home used to have one, I have been assured by my brother's yuppie friends that this is not the case anymore and that even people he knows who live in 2 million dollar houses don't have them. They all have to have gone _somewhere_! Rick Jones piano, for example, does a brisk business simply by marking up the pianos they get on wholesale to a more reasonable degree (though it's all relative) than someone like Jordan-Kitts would. (who don't really want you to buy anything other than a new Steinway, of course) So these "rows and rows" (yes, notice the quantity!) of used Kawais they talk about STARTING at $8K, I could easily believe they are buying in depressed areas of the country for 2-3K...and rather cheaply moving them in bulk to the suburbs of DC, which still has a robust upper-middle class who can afford 8K for their advancing piano student son or daughter. (who might well have started on a digital, making the "starter upright" category of mechanical piano more worthless still) So that's a pretty nice little markup...but I don't begrudge them because they have a good reputation and they aren't really making a secret of any of it...some people just want to go to a showroom with tons of pianos and buy one. I'd have to spend a few years looking for one at a wholesale price, just as I did for my organ. As I've said before it's all a matter of how quickly you want it and as Jbird604 points out, what you want with it...like a warranty. (and Rick Jones has quite a nice one - 10 years!)
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Funnily enough though, having played the latest yamaha digital pianos, I almost thinks it makes more sense to get one of those! They are so good it's scary, in particular the action, which is better than many mechanical pianos I've played in my day!</p>

BTW I am in no way connected to Rick Jones, I just think their business is a fascinating one and illustrative of what's really going on with the used piano/organ scene. I bet they make Jordan Kitts piano salesman's blood boil...since they are practically the only game in town anymore for new pianos in DC.</p>

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[rodenstock01]

Thanks for stirring my confidence. As for pianos, not sure what's happening there. Our chuch just got a wonderful Baby Steinway for free from one of those wealthy families you were talking about. Wanted more room so out it went. Don't really see the need for them in the house unless you want a showpiece. A nice little digital takes up as much room as an ironing board, and all you really need forpractice and fun. Now, an organ is entirely different. Can't get one of those in miniature. The one I'm look at is probably the smallest you can go. Only 17" wide without the pedalboard. In that case I've decided to send a note asking if he can sell it for $2500. If that doesn't pursuade him then he had better learn to play the organ or something because he will have it for the rest of his life. And from that point it will go out with the trash or end up in some church basement or garage.</P>

[OrgansR4Me]

A Steinway has always been something very special (not that I don't respect Allen Organs). They have an enduring quality. Repair while costly (and that contributes to high resale prices at times) is very frequently the specialty of local restorers. Many of them are fine craftsmen, artisans, and well worth the cost. This is much like the proper restoration of a painting or other fine Object d'Art! Work of this kind is only being performed on Theater Pipe organs at this time. Only hobbyists are maintaining vintage electronic organs. There is absolutely no resale market for them outside our hobbyist family.</P>


Now the truth about organs, is they are also very costly to rebuild and repair (which ironically is one of the forces driving prices down)-- but I don't think the gentleman is making any representation of having done so -- and it's pristine condition can actually be a negative in the field of vintage organs because they H A V E to be played to keep the electronics in optimum condition.</P>


Early digitals are only slightly a cut above the previous analog models and not any longer considered Modern -- just ask the MIDI crowd here on the forum. Your first offer of $1250 was a very good offer, and private sales shouldn't be judged by the prices Music stores have as list prices. Usually they fall during the negotiation or if no buyer shows interest. If you are willing to pay $2500 I don't judge you for it. The organs we don't get to buy can haunt us as the one that got away so it's up to you to say what you want to do. But don't base your price on the sellers representation or his probably not too educated "appraisal". We are the people buying organs here on the forum and we know better!</P>
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[rodenstock01]

Thank you. This is precisely what I had in mind when I made the offer. Unfortunately this mode of discussion doesn't get much mileagewith sellers whether they are in business or private parties but for different reasons. The one thing music retailers hate is for you to call their bluff this way so i stopped doing that. I made the mistake once of telling a lady owner something I had read about here onthe organ forum and that I saw her listings on ebay. At that point our friendly discussion turned around pretty quick. She warned me not to listen to anyone on here because people have bad intentions. If I had said anything moreshe probably would've slapped me. Funny if she were reading this now :)</P>


As for the owner of the Allen ADC he again warned me to stop talking once he heard $1250. He let me know that he'd rather keep it sitting where it was for that amount. The only other time I get this reaction is at tax season when I'm working for the local income tax service. Everyone expects to leave with a big fat check. If it turns out the check is coming from their pocketbook,hate to be on the receiving end of that scene. Scary but true. Good thing we have enough people living in la-la land to make the world go round. Without them, most businesses would probably fail.</P>

[NoTalent]

I think I talked to this guy! He had an ad in the Buffalo paper, along with some Steinway's? Right?</p>

Well, I called him last week to find out what he had (the ad only said "Allen Organ") and he said it was sold -- did you get it? </p>

Little late, but maybe you could show him Brandon's post where he found one for $400:</p>

http://organforum.com/forums/thread/52751.aspx</p>

[rodenstock01]

Hey Greg. Yup I did buy it. The problem here is that he originally bought it for $2K more than what it was worth so he wouldn't let it go for it's real value. Anyway, I have it and glad I do. It's in absolutely perfect shape in every way and sounds great. Have been playing every day now. To me, it was worth the extra money.