The Organ Forum

It wasn't the "catholic" part I took issue with, but the "so-called" bit, and the way in which the word was used.

 

Tutti:

So it isn't doctrine then. It is an ideal. You answered my question, thanks.

Of course it's not a doctrine, it's a policy with many Christian churches.  Not yours obviously.

Tutti:

  Do churches not base their theology on the Bible? Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was God? It doesn't. Who's actually out of touch with reality? Care to explain why there were so many versions of Christianity that did NOT believe in the divinity of Jesus? And why they were forcibly destroyed by the new Orthodox church after Nicaea? 

Yes the Bible does say Jesus is God.  If you knew it as well as you say you do, you would know the statements Jesus made about himself as well as the statements Paul made several times in his epistles.  If you want to cling to the pretzel logic non-Christian groups use to interpret those passages, you're welcome to, but it isn't intellectually honest.    The "versions" of Christianity that don't believe that are not Christian, to put it simply.  Just because some group or cult claims to be Christian, doesn't make it so.  Gnostism, for example,  claimed to be Christian, but Paul refuted their beliefs in his letters.  Heresy has been a problem throughout the history of the church, so what else is new?

Tutti:

Then why did you bring up my spelling of god? Your own arguments are inconsistent. The fact that we agree on almost all of the musical question is blurred by the fact that you are a jerk when it comes to everything else (nitpicking on capitlization. . . I mean come on man). Why do you care so much about what I believe and nit pick every statement I make? My generation would call that "jock riding". I suggest you get off my jock and worry about yourself.

 

You can't come up with one example of my being inconsistent.  Not one.  And you have stooped once again to ad hominem attacks because you have no substance to your arguments.  You had the arrogance to say you were stooping to my level, but I won't stoop to yours.

I was "nitpicking" about capitalization because that is another example of the disintegration of our culture.  You are obviously not paying attention to what I am saying.  You can believe what you want.  How many times do I have to say that?  Can you just try shutting your emotions off for a minute and actually pay attention to what I am writing?

You are the one who started picking a fight here.  Go back and read your first post on this thread.

And the moderator is right to call you out on this.  The moderator isn't taking my side on this.  Nothing the moderator said supports my view.  If someone doesn't support you, they are the enemy right?  Unbelievable.

The issue for me isn't what you believe as much as it is what the policy of Christian churches regarding music.  There are more important things for Christian churches to be concerned with than having the best music program or musicians.   Having good music is very important, but it isn't the MOST important thing.  And more important things shouldn't suffer at the expense of having the best music possible.   There shouldn't have to be a choice between the two.

I also have a problem with the abuse of the word "Christian".  You can be religious, a deist, theist, whatever.  But the word "Christian" should, and does, have a very specific definition.   That was the purpose of the creeds.  To establish or maintain orthodoxy on the issues that were of primary importance.  It was not a reason to kill those who disagreed, just to maintain a purity of what Christianity meant and believed.  Those who wish to believe otherwise, about the deity of Christ, are free to do so, but they are not within the boundaries of Christianity.  They can be religous yes, Christian, no.   

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I am NOT a PC programmer. I program on Mainframe computers!

Non omnes qui habemt citharam sunt citharoedi

Jason E:

Fettler:

"Christians who follow the so-called catholic creeds"

What's that supposed to mean?

Calm down Fettler, "catholic" was not capitalized.  

See what a difference capitalization makes?  With a small "c" catholic means "universal".  Capitalize the "C" and it means the Roman Church.  It is important when people capitalize letters and when they don't.  Thank you for the example.

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I am NOT a PC programmer. I program on Mainframe computers!

Non omnes qui habemt citharam sunt citharoedi

First let me state that I personally greatly perfer reformation-style hymns with organ accompanyment, and rarely go out of my way to participate in a praise band worship, but that is my personal preference, not a conviction about Divinly ordained modes of worship. If it brings a soul closer to Yehoshue Hamessiyahu (Jesus the Christ) good for it.

Now can we back up and get the historical perspective on this stuff?

Early Christian worship music seems to have been acapella hymn singing. The ancestor of our organs was the Roman hydralus - sort of a calliope - used to entertain at games and chariot races. The first report I know of an organ in western Europe was a hypodrome- type hydralus sent by the Byzantine Emperor to Charlmagne in the 800s. He installed it in the cathedral along with other trophies like captured enemy banners, having no racecourses near Aix la chapelle.  In the middle ages blockwerk organs tuned in the Pythagorean mode appeared in the largest churches to supply processional music, gradually developing into the slider chest organs in the Renaissance. The Reformation returned congregational singing to a prominant place organs providing accompanyment where practical, and the Catholic Counter-Reformation introduced more congregational participation  into the Mass of the Roman church. Some of the fundamentalist reformers were so opposed to Organs that instruments throughout Britain and Northern Europe were destroyed in the 1600s.

In the English Colonies the descendents of these Puritans continued to avoid the use of church musical instruments , along with crosses on steples and Christmas observences, among others as "Popish Excess". Also, as churches moved out on the frontier, organs were beyond the financial means of the new congregations the settlers started, though on Sundays,local marching/dance bands would accompany singing in many places, until the 1850 when the cheaper reed organs became available (Only in the last 30 years have some of them started putting crosses up).

Well, the praise bands are a legitimate successor to those church orchestras of the 18th and 19th centuries both in the U.S. and Europe; likewise to the Beergarten bands for which Bach wrote music, many pieces that we play in church today.

Therefore, as the Spanish proverb goes: nunca diga De este agua no bebere. " Never say I won't drink this water"

Lee

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If you can keep your head
when all about you are losing theirs
and blaming it on you
Its just possible you haven't grasped the situation.

Fettler:

It wasn't the "catholic" part I took issue with, but the "so-called" bit, and the way in which the word was used.

so-called   adj. 1. Commonly called: "new buildings ... in so-called modern style" (Graham Greene). 2. Incorrectly or falsely termed: a so-called manager, unable to inspire a team effort.USAGE NOTES: Quotation marks are not used to set off descriptions that follow expressions such as so-called and self-styled, which themselves relieve the writer of responsibility for the attribution: his so-called foolproof method (not "foolproof method").

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Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Since I thought I had used the word "so-called" correctly, I just don't get it. The creeds about which I spoke are commonly called (or so-called) the catholic creeds. That's the way I was taught to refer to them.

If I am incorrect, please instruct me. Thanks.

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Cole
http://heavyorgan.org

radagast:

The "versions" of Christianity that don't believe that are not Christian, to put it simply.  Just because some group or cult claims to be Christian, doesn't make it so.

Can you just try shutting your emotions off for a minute and actually pay attention to what I am writing?

I also have a problem with the abuse of the word "Christian". ...  But the word "Christian" should, and does, have a very specific definition.   That was the purpose of the creeds.  To establish or maintain orthodoxy on the issues that were of primary importance.

This is good. Here is where I would use one of my favorite terms: "so-called Christian". Not all who claim to be Christian really are Christian.

radagast:

I was "nitpicking" about capitalization because that is another example of the disintegration of our culture.

Capital letters are merely a convention. They are a rather convenient convention, but hardly necessary. Remember that the Torah and much of the Old Testament was written without vowels (I don't know about capitals). Context is quite a bit more important than capitals. Military types seemingly love to type in all caps. Does that mean they are trying to promote anarchy? There is an email running around that has words misspelled with only the first and last letters correct. Most people can read and understand what the message is. Who knows, maybe even spelling is just a convention!

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Cole
http://heavyorgan.org

With such ridiculous arguing like this, I am just sure glad I am not religious anymore.

Choirmaster:

With such ridiculous arguing like this, I am just sure glad I am not religious anymore.

It is not ridiculous at all to me.  This has been a very intense exchange of ideas and I am most grateful to my fellow mates in this thread for their contributions.  I am a proud and devout Anglican; I would not serve my Church as organist if I felt otherwise. 

There is nothing that can sound as epic or even scary as a pipe organ. If not for the Prog Rock band Emerson Lake and Palmer I don't think I would have even payed attention to organs, it was my interest in their music that led me to hear songs such as "Jerusalem" done by an awesome sounding organ. I think pipe organs need to be used in modern music as much as possible, especially church because I am a young musician who loves rock music outside of church, but when I hear "Holy Holy Holy" played with the right tone on a pipe organ, it sends more chills (a good thing) down my spine then any 15 chorus' of "God of Wonders" done by a "CCM" band. If young kids were more exposed to organ music not just as "old people church music" but as a dynamic and EPIC instrument then I think they could love it. I know I do!

Baba Yaga:

If young kids were more exposed to organ music not just as "old people church music" but as a dynamic and EPIC instrument then I think they could love it. I know I do!

Baba Yaga (perhaps a reference to Mussorgky's Pictures?), your comments are welcome.  Yet you should move over to Blower Room/ General Chat/ How can we as peers get the younger generation interested?

Myself, I thought that thread died too soon. 

Jason E:

Baba Yaga:

If young kids were more exposed to organ music not just as "old people church music" but as a dynamic and EPIC instrument then I think they could love it. I know I do!

Baba Yaga (perhaps a reference to Mussorgky's Pictures?), your comments are welcome.  Yet you should move over to Blower Room/ General Chat/ How can we as peers get the younger generation interested?

Myself, I thought that thread died too soon. 

Jason,

   As an Anglican, you and I proabaly don't agree on a few things  in regards to some of our beliefs as a Christian.  But if you are a good Anglican ( and I take you at your word that you are), then we agree on the most important and fundamental and primary beliefs.  And in the end, those issues are what is important, not the secondary (or tertiary?) areas in which we may not be in agreement.

I believe it was Blaise Pascal who said, "In essentials, unity.  In nonessentials, liberty".

 

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I am NOT a PC programmer. I program on Mainframe computers!

Non omnes qui habemt citharam sunt citharoedi

Baba Yaga:

There is nothing that can sound as epic or even scary as a pipe organ. If not for the Prog Rock band Emerson Lake and Palmer I don't think I would have even payed attention to organs, it was my interest in their music that led me to hear songs such as "Jerusalem" done by an awesome sounding organ. I think pipe organs need to be used in modern music as much as possible, especially church because I am a young musician who loves rock music outside of church, but when I hear "Holy Holy Holy" played with the right tone on a pipe organ, it sends more chills (a good thing) down my spine then any 15 chorus' of "God of Wonders" done by a "CCM" band. If young kids were more exposed to organ music not just as "old people church music" but as a dynamic and EPIC instrument then I think they could love it. I know I do!

I too was, and am, a fan of ELP's works.  And you have also echoed my sentiment that more people would have a passion for organ music in a church, if the music were not played like a dirge, and the organists playing them strove for excellence.

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I am NOT a PC programmer. I program on Mainframe computers!

Non omnes qui habemt citharam sunt citharoedi

fuguebwv582:

  Capital letters are merely a convention. They are a rather convenient convention, but hardly necessary. Remember that the Torah and much of the Old Testament was written without vowels (I don't know about capitals). Context is quite a bit more important than capitals. Military types seemingly love to type in all caps. Does that mean they are trying to promote anarchy? There is an email running around that has words misspelled with only the first and last letters correct. Most people can read and understand what the message is. Who knows, maybe even spelling is just a convention!

While true, the issue is not ancient Hebrew or New Testament Greek.  It is modern English.

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I am NOT a PC programmer. I program on Mainframe computers!

Non omnes qui habemt citharam sunt citharoedi

radagast:

As an Anglican, you and I proabaly don't agree on a few things  in regards to some of our beliefs as a Christian.  But if you are a good Anglican ( and I take you at your word that you are), then we agree on the most important and fundamental and primary beliefs.  And in the end, those issues are what is important, not the secondary (or tertiary?) areas in which we may not be in agreement.

Bill, this is very well put.  I did not mean to be so severe on Choirmaster- no harm was intended and I guess I understand his frustration.  Yet this is an Organ forum and naturally religion will arise on occasion for obvious reasons.  I may be be more focused on the Anglo-Catholic wing of the Church of England, but I do not have a regular appointment (I have a full time job in London's financial sector) and never meant to imply that I would not accept a substitute job at a non-C of E church.

Jason E:

radagast:

As an Anglican, you and I proabaly don't agree on a few things  in regards to some of our beliefs as a Christian.  But if you are a good Anglican ( and I take you at your word that you are), then we agree on the most important and fundamental and primary beliefs.  And in the end, those issues are what is important, not the secondary (or tertiary?) areas in which we may not be in agreement.

Bill, this is very well put.  I did not mean to be so severe on Choirmaster- no harm was intended and I guess I understand his frustration.  Yet this is an Organ forum and naturally religion will arise on occasion for obvious reasons.  I may be be more focused on the Anglo-Catholic wing of the Church of England, but I do not have a regular appointment (I have a full time job in London's financial sector) and never meant to imply that I would not accept a substitute job at a non-C of E church.

Jason,

      I wasn't commenting on your post to Choirmaster.  It was just an affirmation that you and I probably share some common and important beliefs.  And that is important if you are giving your talents to a church.  Because of that commonality, I would not feel out of place playing the organ in an Anglican church, because I would know that I am playing for a church that (probably) shares my fundamental beliefs.   Especially if it is an Anglican church like the one C.S. Lewis attended.

      I would feel out of place and uncomfortable playing for a place of worship that denied my most fundamental beliefs.  No need to mention names or groups here.  That is not the point.  They can believe what they like.  I just wouldn't want to play the organ for them.  

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I am NOT a PC programmer. I program on Mainframe computers!

Non omnes qui habemt citharam sunt citharoedi