The Organ Forum

Text of response deleted; the pun was just too lame.  Besides, I was thinking of sanguina anyway . . .

Oops!

Darnit.  I was waiting for someone to say something really transgressive and start a small flame war, like "I hate VICTORY".

It's cool how a few of the big dogs - like VICTORY, or ADESTE FIDELES - never get used for another hymn besides the one they are famous for!

I'm different from a lot of the people here in that I don't regularly attend church and consume ecclesiastical music mostly from the viewpoint of a classical music enthusiast.  I sometimes went to the National Cathedral when I lived near DC or a few other churches known to have select music program's like St. Paul's K Street.  The greatest singing of a hymn I remember was THAXTED at the National Cathedral Pipe Spectacular in the autumn of 2001.  The Cathedral was filled, of course, with music enthusiasts who knew the tune and could really belt it out.  (and proving that the "projection" argument about why a new organ is needed is fatuous...the problem is that people today are hopelessly tone deaf even if a diapason rank was 2 ft. from their left ear they aren't going to sing well) Anyhow I believe this was a last minute program addition to commemorate 9/11 and it was very moving.

I can't think of many hymns I hate, per se; although some of the gospel-y ones people mentioned earlier seem sort of shlocky ("Love Lifted Me") they are still in a world of better taste than the likes of "On Eagle's Wings."  Some are too simple and boxy, some seem to meander around too much, but they are alright as songs generally.  The best - like the classic Welsh and English tunes - have just the right balance.

To digress slightly...does anybody have a hymn tune they think is unduly obscure and worthy of more attention?  It was originally a shape note song - and I'm not sure what that actually means in terms of the ethnographic/musicology process by which church music has evolved, for example whether other tunes started life as shape note songs - but I quite like WINDHAM.  I became aware of it from the stark opening to Laurie Kahn Leavitt's brilliant docudrama "A Midwife's Tale."  Granted it IS a rather a stark and dirge-like tune, but I think in a good way.  I'm sure a brilliant organist somewhere has done something clever with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Circa, maybe you might want to start a new thread - obscure hymns that deserve more attention.

In the meantime, I'll be happy to contribute at least one: REPTON, by Parry.

It is fairly well known in the UK, but hardly known in the US... at least in the churches I've played for.

Here is a link to the tune on Cyberhymnal: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/mid/r/e/p/repton.mid

---

Soubasse32

soubasse32:

In the meantime, I'll be happy to contribute at least one: REPTON, by Parry.

It is fairly well known in the UK, but hardly known in the US... at least in the churches I've played for.

 

I'm quite seriously gobsmacked by this news. In my circles, this is such a stalwart that people who don't know hymns know this one. It's always sung to "Dear Lord and Father Of Mankind", and it works very well indeed. If it's not well known in the US, it should be!!

Well, I've never heard REPTON before, and I have a better than average knowledge of hymn tunes used by Methodists since the 1930s.  We sing "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind" to REST (Maker) and always have, to my knowledge.  I listened to REPTON and agree that it's an interesting tune that perhaps needs more attention.  I have 2 contibutions to the "more attention" group:  BRYN CALFARIA and one whose name I have forgotten but was an old Finnish cavalry march used for the hymn "Lift High the Triumph Cross Today"  (#131 in the old 1930s Methodist Hymnal).  The UMC hymnal had 2 hymn texts set to BRYN CALFARIA a couple of editions ago but the current edition does not include either one.  It's an old Welsh tune (whoda thunkit) and, like most old Welsh tunes, is more difficult to sing than the pap that is served up today--as a result it was not sung often.  Many other tunes (and the texts associated with them) are likely to bite the dust soon, too, because of underuse:  EBENEZER (or TON Y BOTEL) is among them.  I am mortified that my church can stoop so low.

David

SimonS:

soubasse32:

In the meantime, I'll be happy to contribute at least one: REPTON, by Parry.

It is fairly well known in the UK, but hardly known in the US... at least in the churches I've played for.

 

I'm quite seriously gobsmacked by this news. In my circles, this is such a stalwart that people who don't know hymns know this one. It's always sung to "Dear Lord and Father Of Mankind", and it works very well indeed. If it's not well known in the US, it should be!!

Indeed, Simon.

Repton has to be one of the most recognisable and famous hymn tune around. It often comes up in lists of top 10/20... favourite hymns on TV/Radio (in the UK anyway).

I'm surprised its not that well known in the US. Those that don't know should definitly have a look at it - it has the be one of the most beautiful hymns out there (both words & music).

I've got quite a few hymn tunes that deserve more recognition, but I'll be darned if I can remember the tune names. I'll post back once I get a look at my selection of hymnbooks...

---

Currently own:
ALLEN TC-3S (#42904 - 3rd Feb 1971) with Sequential Capture System

Speakers:
x1 Model 100 Gyro Cabinet
x1 Model 105 Cabinet
x3 Model 108 Cabinet

Soubasse, started.

 

jbird,

 In response to: "I'd hazard a guess that a great many teens and young adults would be far more impressed and spiritually moved by truly awesome, grand, majestic, well-done classical and liturgical worship that by the cheap, throwaway music many churches are using today in hopes of attracting youth." 

Your observation is spot-on, John.  Personal experience: a few years ago, when our daughter was about 16 or so, our pastor found a "new" setting of the liturgy and suggested we give it a try.  Our daughter, and her teenage friends, were singularly unimpressed.  I was especially proud of her when she went to the pastor and gave voice to her disappointment.

Our pastor has since come to the opinion that, for many people, church needs to be "special."  It needs to be different from what you hear on the radio.  I am grateful that every Sunday is "special" for us.

DR
 

David, thanks for mentioning Ebenezer.  I first heard that tune a quarter of a century ago or so, and found it appealing.  Then, we changed hymnals, and there Ebenezer was, with a magnificent text "Thy Strong Word," by someone named "Franzmann" (I've forgotten the first name).  This has become widely loved in our congregation.

Earlier in this thread there was an observation about poorly executed tempi.  The arrangement of Ebenezer that I've grown familiar with has both triplets and duplets (not at the same time, fortunately!), but I seldom hear the duplets played as written.  A dotted rhythm, like 6/8 time, shows up instead ("Curmudgeons R Us"?).

DR 

I've finally got around to reading this thread with a hymnal beside me, so many of the names being discussed now make much more sense. Beecher doesn't seem to be in our book, so I don't know what that is. Sagina I don't hate, but my colleague does. I always end up playing that one! Sine Nomine is a cracking tune, and certainly needs no apologies for unison singing.

Interestingly, I don't like Victory very much at all, and contrary to the comment earlier in this thread, we never use it -- I'm assuming it's used for "The Strife is O'er", right? It's listed as the second tune for that hymn in the ICH, and Vulpius (Gelobt sei Gott) is the first tune, and the one I'm familiar with playing and hearing.

Michael is an interesting one. I like the tune very much, and when I'm away from the console I think it's a great hymn. For some reason, it never works quite so well for me when I'm accompanying, though. I always feel it's a struggle to keep the congregation on the straight and narrow. It's probably the unusual timings. 

Wolvercote is another of my very favourite tunes, used for "O Jesus I have promised". Early on in my regular gig as a teenager (tiny church, 8 stop organ, no choir, 20-strong congregation), I played that tune instead of the probably better-known Missionary. At the end of the service, one of the stalwarts, a former chorister himself, and the person who really led the singing, asked where on earth I'd dug up that tune. I thought it was well-known and told him so. "Besides", I said, "it's one of the very best tunes in the book, so it's good to give it an airing". "Nonsense", he replied, "Blaenwern is the best tune in the book." Which brings me nicely full circle with my contributions to this thread. It's starting to look like I only know about 5 hymns!!

Si
 

Anyone like ORIEL 87 87 87?

Has to be one of the most unimaginative tunes around with the boring first line repeated as the second line of music. Its pretty much straight crotchets throughout making it rather ponderous and "durgy". The tune just doesn't go "anywhere" - its quite step like ...one note up, one note down etc.

One for the scrapheap IMO.

 

---

Currently own:
ALLEN TC-3S (#42904 - 3rd Feb 1971) with Sequential Capture System

Speakers:
x1 Model 100 Gyro Cabinet
x1 Model 105 Cabinet
x3 Model 108 Cabinet

Hi nullogik,

I agree with you about ORIEL 87 87 87 - It just wanders about worse than a Methodist Minister.

Give me THAXTED anyday of the week.

Cheers,

K-Phone 

I have checked out some of the tunes listed in this thread on the Cyberhymnal.  I could not find MICHAEL listed there so still don't know what it sounds like.  There are 3 different tunes named VICTORY in that list--which one did you mean?  The UMC hymnal has the one by Palestrina, and we do sing "The Strife is O'er" to it.   The Cyberhymnal list has different tunes for VULPIUS and GELOBT SEI GOTT (which was, indeed, written by Vulpius)--the UMC hymnal does not have VULPIUS but uses GELOBT SEI GOTT for "Good Christian Men, Rejoice and Sing" (and it is one of my favorite tunes); other editions of the UMC hymnal have also used other texts with this tune.  We do not have WOLVERCOTE; Methodists sing "O Jesus, I Have Promised" to ANGEL'S STORY.  We also do not have MISSIONARY in our hymnal, and there is no tune by that name in Cyberhymnal, either (although there are several that begin with that word).

Here is the Cyberhymnal link to BEECHER:  http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/d/ldalexcl.htm; we sing it to "Love Divine, All Loves Excelling".

David

Give me THAXTED anyday of the week.

I second that, by Jupiter!

I have heard Thaxted used once in my RC church and that was for a special liturgy for some Carmelite Nuns.  I am unable to recall the words, but I have it stashed somewhere in my archives.  Probably one of the most majestic hymns I have ever heard, after Jerusalem.

davidecasteel:

I have checked out some of the tunes listed in this thread on the Cyberhymnal.  I could not find MICHAEL listed there so still don't know what it sounds like.

I gave several YouTube examples of MICHAEL over on the thread about 'lesser-known hymns that should be better known'.  The link to my post is here: http://organforum.com/forums/permalink/51484/51499/ShowThread.aspx#51499

This is getting confusing - some discussions here are about hymns people like in a thread about 'Hymns you dislike'. 

May I respectfully suggest we reserve this thread for hymns we dislike, and use the following thread to discuss hymns we wish were better known?

http://organforum.com/forums/thread/51484.aspx

---

Soubasse32