The Organ Forum

crossyinoz:

But if there's one thing I learnt over those years it's the music and particularly the congregational singing that can make or break the whole tone of a service. One rule I wrote for myself re. services for hatches, matches, despatches, Christmas Day & Easter Sunday when the congregation is full of visitors from who knows where is always stick to the tried and true, hymns that are familiar to most if not all. Nothing can ruin a service of celebration like a hymn that nobody knows or a well known hymn sung to an unfamiliar tune. 

I can't agree more, but a lot of Churches, particular does with no formal choir or music director often get stuck in a rut and sing the same 20 hymns over and over again - you can almost bet you're bottom dollar that one of them will be Amazing Grace.

As usual, its striking a balance. I always aim to have three well known hymns during a service and introduce a single new hymn as the fourth, that way you don't alienate the congregation and you increase your hymn repetoire. Albeit slowly, but a good steady pace.

I totally agree David.  I didn't mean to throw the baby out with the bath water on the use of those texts.  As I illustrated in the beginning of my post, strong sentiment is often attached to hymns.  They certainly can comfort!

Now, has anyone else opinions on tunes that don't sing well or are oversung??  How about the trend toward lower keys in the new hymnals?  Will we end up singing in the basement because our congregations no longer like to sing above a 'g'?  Of course that makes modulating up on the last verse easier as they don't end up in the stratosphere!

Ludwig tone:

IHow about the trend toward lower keys in the new hymnals?  Will we end up singing in the basement because our congregations no longer like to sing above a 'g'?  Of course that makes modulating up on the last verse easier as they don't end up in the stratosphere!

I try to make sure that a congregation hymn never exceeds D (one octave above middle C) and never goes lower than about A or B directly before middle C. Of course there are exceptions where hymns have a wide pitch span - transposing would make some parts far too low/high.

The old military hymnals were deliberately pitched quite low (as much as a fourth down) because the congregations were in many cases almost entirely male.  The current trend in hymnals to lower the pitch is sometimes welcome to me because I can sing most of them along with the sopranos (good for those unison hymns); however, doing that lowers the tenor part so much that it is uncomfortable for me (I'm a First Tenor) and so I sing alto a lot.

Who has time for 4 hymns?  We are lucky to have 2, and mostly ones with no more than 3 verses.  Of course, we do have the congregational response after the Benediction, which is usually a hymn ("Here I Am, Lord" or "Eagles Wings") or some Taize' response.  (Fooey!)  Our services are an hour long and pretty formal for a southern UMC; however, the sermon is at least 20 minutes long (except on Communion Sundays it is more like 10 or 15), there are always 1 and sometimes 2 special music presentations, and the usual prayers, scripture readings, etc.  (I do prefer a Liturgical service--Anglican, Episcopalian, or Lutheran--but am firmly entrenched in my UMC now for 27 years and loath to move.)

As for getting to the point where the same 20 hymns are used over and over, the trend to that is being accelerated by the ubiquitous use of hymn texts projected onto screens instead of the congregation using the hymnal.  Congregants are rapidly losing the ability to read music at even a rudimentary level and so singing an unfamiliar hymn is difficult, even with the hymnal.  The UMC is running a survey right now about the current hymnal and beliefs and desires about hymns, and one of the question sets specifically targets this practice and asks if projected hymns should include the music, too.  (How that would happen is a mystery to me--it's hard enough to project one verse at a time without the music.  I guess a digital hymnal could be developed that would handle each verse a line at a time with the score appropriate for that text--maybe they could even include a bouncing ball....)

David

When I do attend services at my Roman Catholic church ; )  ... I find that the congregation sings with absolutely no gusto or life - it's like every one is murmuring the words off key and off tempo whilst the organist plays with FAR too soft a registration - there is no build up of any kind. I don't know if maybe that is prefered in that church, but I don't look forward to hymn singing. There are such lovely melodies out of the Anglican church right across the road. For instance in my church they seem to pick HYFRYDOL at every single service - it not a bad tune at all, but it soo over played. I would like to hear LOVE DIVINE, ALL LOVES EXCELLING (with the tune by John Stainer), it is so much more interesting to sing and hear, but this hymn is sung to HYFRYDOL with absolutely nooo exception at my church. Personally, can't stand on Eagles wings, especially at funerals - it doesn't seem to flow and the congregation cannot keep up with it - Ill make sure it is not sung at my funeral (if that is possible).

I was moved by DOMINUS REGIT ME (The King of Love my shepherd is), great hymn, love the lyrics and the words. It was sung at my Great Uncle's funeral at the local Anglican Cathedral and it stirred alot of people to tears.

Maybe I'll excommunicate to Her Majesty's Church before I go

I was just kidding about the bouncing ball (I reverently hope)!  Voting in the hymnal survey is limited to once per computer--I have 2 computers, so I voted twice!

A Wurlitzer organ would not be my desire, either.  I am quite satisfied with our new Klais, thank you very much.  Of course, it is not finished, yet--there was a significant portion deferred to a following build (which is now in initial discussions, I think).

David

Ludwig tone:

 

Now, has anyone else opinions on tunes that don't sing well or are oversung??  How about the trend toward lower keys in the new hymnals?  Will we end up singing in the basement because our congregations no longer like to sing above a 'g'?  Of course that makes modulating up on the last verse easier as they don't end up in the stratosphere!

The Chalice Hymnas of the Christian Church DoC, has lowered several hymns.  Some as much as one and one half steps.  Most any song that was written in 3 sharps or more is put into flats (if the song is old enough).  If any of these hymns are used as the Praise Hymn, I will play the hymn as written until the last verse.  Then I will modulate to the original key.  If the hymn is used as Prayer, Communion, or the Invitation Hymn, I will play it in the original key.  I figure the writer put the song in a certian key for a reason, so I play it that way.

I have enjoyed this thread.  A great deal of the songs that have been mentioned as being not too well liked are some of my favorites.  I have to admit, there are not too many hymns that I do not like.  There are some of the new Praise Choruses that I am not too fond of.

Hi all,

Keeping in mind that I am a Southern Baptist and play in a Southern Baptist Church, many of the hymns I play would probably be classified by some, perhaps many, of you as "Gospel songs."

However, one my pet peeves is the congregation not getting the timing/rhythm correct.  One that always bothers me is "The Old Rugged Cross."  Our hymnal uses the dotted eighth, sixteenth, eighth, quarter for the text "hill far a-way."  This same rhythmic pattern repeats throughout the verse.  No one in my congregation sings it this way.  Most of the time it is sung quarter, sixteenth, sixteenth, quarter.  However, for some phrases they do sing it as written.  It drives me crazy whenever I play this song for congregational singing.  (I have little stubborn streak in me and refuse the play what the congregation is singing.)  I think one problem with this particular song is that some copies are written as quarter, sixteenth, sixteenth, quarter, and also, many recordings of it are sung/played this way.

I will not bore you with other examples.  But any hymn that the rhythm is not sung correctly on bothers me.  I don't necessarily dislike the hymns themselves, I just dislike playing them for congregational singing.

Later,

Allen

What bugs me most are hymns sung too slowly.  I don't mean rush through them in a hurry, but 5 verses of a hymn done at dirge tempo is intolerable.  Watch some of the Youtube videos of organists playing hymns and you will see some of the most dragging, dreary and lifeless playing out there.  If organists play like this in churches no wonder people only think "funeral" when they think of organs.

 Some of the worst offenders are on the old gospel style hymns.  Lifeless, or rather, soulless. When I play hymns, either on the organ or on piano, I try to keep the  rhythm moving, sometimes it's just simply walking the bass line, or supporting lines up the scale to the next note.  It's kinda hard to describe, but those musicians (pianists and organists) that can do this make the piece feel like it is breathing, not gasping.

Throwing in a run between the verse and the chorus can seemingly lift a tempo with out changing it (for example a simple run up between the verse and chorus of "Great is Thy Faithfulness").  Don't be afraid to walk the bass notes if possible. Give the hymn some life!

I don't have a decent camcorder so I can't load examples of what I mean on to Youtube. 

Hammondlover:

Although my mother has expressed her dislike of "Onward Christian Soldiers". She finds the tune "Rather Tacky".

For those "rather tacky" hymn tunes that have salvageable words, what about substituting the tune with another familiar one from the metrical index?  Or do your hymnals still have a metrical index?  Ours doesn't.

On another note, someone mentioned In the Garden.  My brother-in-law absolutely detested that piece.  It reminded him of his entire family getting heavily lubricated (aka drunk, or three sheets to the wind) at Thanksgiving, and then slurring out all the verses of In the Garden.  It's taken him years to get over that mental image whenever the song is used in church.

Another I associate with the above behavior is when people use Amazing Grace for gratituitous purposes.  I easily tire of one celebrity after another, who is in need of a few bonus points, singing his/her rendition of that hymn.  I doubt they ever experienced God "saving a wretch like them." [sic]  Otherwise they wouldn't do most of the things they do!  I suppose that for them it's a good fire escape song (escaping the fires of hell).  Somehow, I don't think that's going to do much good in that category!

I have to chalk it up to them not knowing any better.

hillgreen2:

What bugs me most are hymns sung too slowly.  I don't mean rush through them in a hurry, but 5 verses of a hymn done at dirge tempo is intolerable.  Watch some of the Youtube videos of organists playing hymns and you will see some of the most dragging, dreary and lifeless playing out there.  If organists play like this in churches no wonder people only think "funeral" when they think of organs.

Amen, brother!!! (or is it sister?)  Preach it!

hillgreen2:

I don't have a decent camcorder so I can't load examples of what I mean on to Youtube. 

Your description gave a good "snapshot" of what you're describing.  I'm sure you get many people who come up to you after you play and comment that they've never heard organ played like that before.  Isn't it sad that lively organ music is more the exception than the rule?

Keep up the good work.

Michael

In the Garden is a rather syrupy song.  I have done it on occasion as prelude music for a Sunday night service, more for nostalgia than anything else.  I tend to go theatre organ style on it and give it the schmaltz and sentimentality it deserves, but I will not include it as a hymn in a service.

Another one is His Eye is on the Sparrow.  I only did it as a special number or offertory and then it was because it was a favorite of my late mother.  Harold Decou had a very nice arrangement of it that my mom really liked.  I haven't played it since her death a few years ago because it is just gets me too emotional. 

I will have to say I can be guilty of digging out sentimental songs at certain times of the year.  I get one of my male singers to solo on The Holy City on Palm Sunday mostly because it was tradition when I was a kid.  Otherwise I can't stand the song.

hillgreen2:

 

Another one is His Eye is on the Sparrow.  I only did it as a special number or offertory and then it was because it was a favorite of my late mother.  Harold Decou had a very nice arrangement of it that my mom really liked.  I haven't played it since her death a few years ago because it is just gets me too emotional. 

I will have to say I can be guilty of digging out sentimental songs at certain times of the year.  I get one of my male singers to solo on The Holy City on Palm Sunday mostly because it was tradition when I was a kid.  Otherwise I can't stand the song.

I use DeCou's arrangement of "His Eye is on the Sparrow" about once a year.  I think it is about the nicest arrangement I have heard.

Every Palm Sunday we use a piano and organ duet of "The Holy City" for the offertory.  It is rather long, but the congregation loves it.

Interesting that some of Hymns mentioned are ones I like a lot.

There have been hymns in the past that I really disliked, and tried to avoid playing.  That is until I heard a really good interpretation of them.  I then realize if I think of interpreting a hymn in a different manner maybe it's meaning will become clearer to me.