The Organ Forum

What you must remember is that the church would still have to account for the income and other taxes (workman's comp, etc) in the organist's salary.  So if they "pay" you 100 dollars per week they would have to take out taxes and only your net income could be counted as the tithe.

Still, it would be cheaper to pay the income taxes and give you the tax credit than to pay a full blown salary.

Choirmaster:

Generally, Praise Bands and Organ/Choirs are pretty poor and amateurish in churches.   If you are looking for real musical quality look elsewhere.

Gee, you think they might sound amateurish because they use. . . AMATEURS? Hey there's a though. Most praise bands I know actually use church MEMBERS as opposed to trained musicians. Hey there's an idea--let church MEMBERS participate in WORSHIP! God forbid all they ever do is sit in the pews like robots.

Man you guys crack me up. And some of you really scare me as far as your views on worship. You're worshipping music instead of praising god. What ever happened to a joyful noise?

Tutti:

Choirmaster:

Generally, Praise Bands and Organ/Choirs are pretty poor and amateurish in churches.   If you are looking for real musical quality look elsewhere.

Gee, you think they might sound amateurish because they use. . . AMATEURS? Hey there's a though. Most praise bands I know actually use church MEMBERS as opposed to trained musicians. Hey there's an idea--let church MEMBERS participate in WORSHIP! God forbid all they ever do is sit in the pews like robots.

Man you guys crack me up. And some of you really scare me as far as your views on worship. You're worshipping music instead of praising god. What ever happened to a joyful noise?

That's pretty funny.  It seems to me that if anyone is "worshipping" music, it's people who insist on contemporary music only, in a church.  There is nothing being said about members particpating in worship.  You are building a straw man here.  And what ever happened to spelling God with a capital "G"?

I am on the worship team at my church.  Musical quality?  What is quality about music that has three chords (sometimes only two) and is primarily rhythm based?

The problem with a "joyful noise" is that too many times it is little more than noise.  When you crank up the volume to the point that the words (which many times, though not all) have little depth and thought given to them, THEN you are WORSHIPPING music, NOT GOD!!!

Bill

---

I am NOT a PC programmer. I program on Mainframe computers!

Non omnes qui habemt citharam sunt citharoedi

Well ... I think what folks are trying to get at is that there is an ongoing balancing act.  Particularly when members of the music/ministry team change.

I have maintained that whenever possible, qualified church members should be preferred over external folks.  Now, I stress the qualified part of things.  If you have 2 organists and one is slightly better ... maybe even more than slightly better, but not a member ... take the member.  Generally speaking, it has been my experience that existing congregation members know the preferences of the congregation better and can more easily fulfill their musical needs.  Additionally, I think you pick up some other intangibles such as increased loyalty, desire to get the job done right, interest/comfort in the leader ... all those come with picking someone inside the congregation.

When you start chasing professionals just for the sake of having "The best music possible (is there such a thing?) and the most professional/fancy service" just for the sake of having the best ... then you are worshipping music.  However, if you are chasing professionals down because you don't have qualified persons inside the church ... that in and of itself isn't a bad thing.

Just my 2 cents.

Good points, Bombarde 32!  As the very dedicated non-stipendary assistant organist of my parish, I can really respect what you are saying and relate to it.  But let me add that we have a professional music director/organist that we are all very fond of and happy to have.  He is past retirement age and don't want to even think about him actually retiring.  I really do not feel qualified to take over; although who knows what may actually happen?

I can tell you that at our church we had a non-professional that played from when she was 16 until she was dead at 68.  Obviously to survive for 50+ years on one bench she was good and well liked.  2 folks tried out to replace her ... myself and someone outside the church.  The other one got the job as her solo skills were superior to mine.  2 years later she left and the job was just handed to me.  I didn't really think I was ready but took it anyways.  It is amazing how fast you can grow when your church is counting on you!!  One good year of hard work and practice and you wouldn't even be the same organist.

Hi Jason E,

I'm in Canada, so Anglican out here means Church of England. Or at least with all the controversy going on, at this point it still means Church of England!

Bombarde32,

I agree with you about how organists should be paid. We spend hours and hours and plenty of money to better ourselves and to get qualifications. It's even more crucial when it becomes our livelihood. I will say though, that volunteers are replaceable. For example, a Sunday School teacher that teaches catechism to the kids and does it well is very valuable as opposed to a Sunday School teacher that just has them colouring and stuff. Good Christian education, especially in these times is very critical. Another example would be to have talented singers in the choir. The more talented people you have, the more you can do. Although, there is nothing that says the "untalented" can't become talented either. It's amazing when that happens. I once got a choir that for the most part couldn't read music to sing something out of the Messiah. God doesn't create junk. We, like everything else He creates, are Masterpieces.

radagast:

That's pretty funny.  It seems to me that if anyone is "worshipping" music, it's people who insist on contemporary music only, in a church.

I never said anything about having contemporary music only. You're putting words in my mouth. But if there's a church that only wants contemporary what's wrong with that?

And what ever happened to spelling God with a capital "G"?

Why should I? God isn't a proper noun.

I am on the worship team at my church.  Musical quality?  What is quality about music that has three chords (sometimes only two) and is primarily rhythm based?

I simply can't counter your argument there because you don't seem to be very knowledgable about music. I mean to make a statement that contemporary songs are based on three chords (WRONG) without acknowledging that many traditional hymns are as well tells me you don't really know you're theory. And to say those same cont songs are rhythm based. . . do you have a degree in music? Not that it matters. Plenty of music majors aren't really musicians.

When you crank up the volume to the point that the words (which many times, though not all) have little depth and thought given to them, THEN you are WORSHIPPING music, NOT GOD!!!

And what the hell does that have to do with genre?

everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

---

www.nycfarmboy.com
www.reuter822.com

God with a capital "G" because that's His name and it shows respect.  "His" with a capital "H" in the previous sentence simply as a sign of respect.

Tutti:

radagast:

 

I never said anything about having contemporary music only. You're putting words in my mouth. But if there's a church that only wants contemporary what's wrong with that?

And what ever happened to spelling God with a capital "G"?

Why should I? God isn't a proper noun.

 

I simply can't counter your argument there because you don't seem to be very knowledgable about music. I mean to make a statement that contemporary songs are based on three chords (WRONG) without acknowledging that many traditional hymns are as well tells me you don't really know you're theory. And to say those same cont songs are rhythm based. . . do you have a degree in music? Not that it matters. Plenty of music majors aren't really musicians.

When you crank up the volume to the point that the words (which many times, though not all) have little depth and thought given to them, THEN you are WORSHIPPING music, NOT GOD!!!

And what the hell does that have to do with genre?

There are so many things wrong with this that it is hard to know where to start, but here goes:

You have no idea what you are talking about in so many ways. 

"God" most certainly IS a proper noun.  The word "god" can be used in different ways but in a Christian sense (and Jewish too) it is a PROPER noun.  In some places you capitalized God and in others you didn't.  You're ignorance of this is very telling as well as you're vulgarity.  What do YOU have to do with Christian music anyway? 

If a church wants to have only contemporary music, that is their choice.  HOWEVER, in my many YEARS of involvement with church music, I have seen situations where it was shoved down the throats of people who didn't like it.  The attitude was that the older folks should be more flexible.  Well that works both ways.  Young folks should be flexible as well.

I am very knowledgeable about music.  IF you are going to quote me then have the intellectual honesty to respond to ALL of what I said.  I mentioned three-chord songs that emphasize primarily rhythm.  Do you need a reading comprehension course?  You don't have to have a bit of knowledge about theory to know that most hymns are simple in structure.  However, their lyrics have more depth than "Jesus is great, Jesus is great, yeah yeah yeah".

As far as cranking up the volume, that happens with too many praise bands who are trying to sound like a rock concert.  It is offensive when people are trying to pray at the altar.

My advice to you Tutti:

1) Grow up

2) Wash your mouth out with soap (or your hands since it was typed)

3) Pay attention more to what you are reading

 

---

I am NOT a PC programmer. I program on Mainframe computers!

Non omnes qui habemt citharam sunt citharoedi

MenchenStimme:

God with a capital "G" because that's His name and it shows respect.  "His" with a capital "H" in the previous sentence simply as a sign of respect.

Also recall that there are some (myself not included) who think that it is Her name.

Lee

---

If you can keep your head
when all about you are losing theirs
and blaming it on you
Its just possible you haven't grasped the situation.

radagast:

"God" most certainly IS a proper noun.

No it's not. You are suggesting that "god" is the name for the supreme being, which it certainly is not. Nowhere in the Bible does it say so. I suggest you look further into your theology.

The word "god" can be used in different ways but in a Christian sense (and Jewish too) it is a PROPER noun.

Like I just said, no it's not. And I'm not Christian anyway so that part of your argument is moot.

If a church wants to have only contemporary music, that is their choice.  HOWEVER, in my many YEARS of involvement with church music, I have seen situations where it was shoved down the throats of people who didn't like it.  The attitude was that the older folks should be more flexible.  Well that works both ways.  Young folks should be flexible as well.

Not once did I say ANYTHING to suggest I though it should be forced on anyone. My issue all along has been with musical idiots who think that just because it is contemporary it is somehow less. You seem to fall into that demographic.

I am very knowledgeable about music.  IF you are going to quote me then have the intellectual honesty to respond to ALL of what I said.  I mentioned three-chord songs that emphasize primarily rhythm.  Do you need a reading comprehension course?  You don't have to have a bit of knowledge about theory to know that most hymns are simple in structure.  However, their lyrics have more depth than "Jesus is great, Jesus is great, yeah yeah yeah".

Could you please give us the title and composer of that song? I'd like to look it up. Or a program from a church that actually used that tune.

My advice to you Tutti:

1) Grow up

2) Wash your mouth out with soap (or your hands since it was typed)

3) Pay attention more to what you are reading

1) What makes you think I'm immature? I seem to have shot down every single one of your arguments and you counter by changing what I said into something I didn't say. Which makes me think YOU need to do #3.

2) When did I curse?

My advice to you:

1) Become a better musician

Sheesh! Last time I checked, this wasn't the grease pit, so let's keep it clean. Please?

Now then.

Tutti, you are correct, to an extent. When Moses asked, God simply replied "I am." However, when we say "God" in the Christian or Jewish sense, we are referring to the supreme being, which is why it is a proper noun.

To be accurate, it doesn't matter HOW we worship, it matters that we DO worship. God doesn't really care if we're singing hymns or singing praise songs, He just cares that we're actually doing it.

Really, we're the only ones that care how we worship. I personally prefer singing hymns with an organ. That's how I feel the most "connected" with God. I don't feel "connected" with drums and guitars. I simply don't. Some people are entirely opposite. However, these opinions really don't make any difference to God, whatsoever.

We're all entitled to our own opinions. But for goodness sake, be nice about it!

Back to the main subject of "praise bands"...

---

The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul. - Johann Sebastian Bach
Baylor University School of Music

Tutti:

radagast:

"God" most certainly IS a proper noun.

No it's not. You are suggesting that "god" is the name for the supreme being, which it certainly is not. Nowhere in the Bible does it say so. I suggest you look further into your theology.
 

 Not once did I say ANYTHING to suggest I though it should be forced on anyone. My issue all along has been with musical idiots who think that just because it is contemporary it is somehow less. You seem to fall into that demographic.

I am very knowledgeable about music.  IF you are going to quote me then have the intellectual honesty to respond to ALL of what I said.  I mentioned three-chord songs that emphasize primarily rhythm.  Do you need a reading comprehension course?  You don't have to have a bit of knowledge about theory to know that most hymns are simple in structure.  However, their lyrics have more depth than "Jesus is great, Jesus is great, yeah yeah yeah".

Could you please give us the title and composer of that song? I'd like to look it up. Or a program from a church that actually used that tune.

  1) What makes you think I'm immature? I seem to have shot down every single one of your arguments and you counter by changing what I said into something I didn't say. Which makes me think YOU need to do #3.

2) When did I curse?

 

As others have pointed out, in ENGLISH, GOD is a proper noun.  That is not my opinion, it's fact.

In Arabic, Allah is the name for "God".  Even Arabic speaking Christians call God Allah.  In English, we say GOD.  That is a simple matter of English.

You have not shot down any of my points.  You have driveled on and on with your straw men.

I happen to like rock music a lot.  If you saw my CD collection, you woulkd realize that.  My point, which for some reason you can't grasp, is how it's applied.  If you saw that for yourself in a church, you might comprehend what I am talking about.  By your own admission, you are ignorant of the issues involved here.

My "example" was hyperbole.  Another concept you are unable to recognize.  There are contemporary Christian songs that have lyrical depth, and others that do not.  Again, I have years of experience here.

Your "curse" was the use of hell.  Again if you knew scripture you would know that.  That is the kind of language that could send this thread to the grease pit.  If it goes there we have you to thank.

Your latest rant has been reduced to arguing about English and your fixation on my use of hyperbole.  You haven't refuted anything I've said.  Just because you keep repeating the same erroneous information, doesn't you've refuted anything.

I happen to enjoy playing all sorts of music at my church.  But anything can be done in the wrong way and that is my point.

---

I am NOT a PC programmer. I program on Mainframe computers!

Non omnes qui habemt citharam sunt citharoedi