The Organ Forum

I saw a midi9 that was experimentally installed on an Allen a few years ago.  Since the Allen MOS series has a multiplexed (scanned) keyboard that I am familiar with,  it was logical to design a midi encoder taking advantage of that scheme.  The wiring is much simpler.   Since most newer keyboards are multiplexed it's not difficult to design an encoder if it's not already available.   In my own instance,  the sales of my encoder did not cover the design and manufacturing cost so it became a hobby enterprise with little commercial future.

Since there are many more pianos than organs,  it is probable that the mechanical/optical approach like Midi9 could be successful.    Someone with a $45,000.00 Steinway could certainly afford $2000.00 or so to add recording capability.  Remember those pianos don't depreciate like an electronic organ. 

I utilized Artisan Micro-Midi components in my pipe organ control system with good results.  Their design is good with quality components and software that's not too difficult to use.  These same components could be used to midify almost any organ with non-multiplexed DC keying,  whether it be digital, analog or pipe.  My installation is 3 or 4 years old with no failures.   That's better than my Allen!   

Lastly,  it's best to always remember that cheap isn't always the best deal.  I have past scars to prove that point. 

Al

Found on ebay!!

MIDI Retrofit Kit 

Good for two 61 key organ keyboards.  Alas, nothing to MIDIfy the pedalboard.  Any thoughts on this?
 

That ebay listing is interesting - looks like the older type that has mechanical switches.  It will not work in my organ; mine has the pratt-read key mechanism - hollow key channels (well I guess I can stuff the key channels with something - more trouble than it's worth) and in any case most likely not enough clearance.  The ebay listing also says the manufacturer is still in business but does not list the manufacturer unless I missed it somewhere.   Probably still a good deal for someonw with an organ it will work with - if it works. 

The guy at MIDI-9 said he thinks their system will work with hollow keyuchannels but was not sure - will ask engineers - didn't hear back yet.  It was not tested with hollow key channels   He also said the of the new optical 61-note system that only 3 or 4 were sold and that they are still very new.  It looks like most of their business is in the piano system.  I'll let you know if I find out anything else.

jimmywilliams:

That ebay listing is interesting - looks like the older type that has mechanical switches.  It will not work in my organ; mine has the pratt-read key mechanism - hollow key channels (well I guess I can stuff the key channels with something - more trouble than it's worth) and in any case most likely not enough clearance.  The ebay listing also says the manufacturer is still in business but does not list the manufacturer unless I missed it somewhere.   Probably still a good deal for someonw with an organ it will work with - if it works. 

Reading through the detail it says that it uses optical switches.  Fortunately my organ has solid keys (I don't know if they had started making hollow key channels in 1945). 

The seller says that the unit is 4 years old and cost $1,200 new.  Someone has already took the initial $9.99 starting bid, but if I could get it a reasonable price, I could be worth the risk.

Joe,

Yes the description said "optical" switches, and maybe there are probably some optical type components in the switching mechanism - don't know the specifics.  But, there still is a mechanical lever component.  You can see these levers sticking up.  The system listed actually bears some similarity to the old MIDI9 KS system; can't tell if it is or not.  (I was comparing this one to the new MIDI9 "PNOScan" series which is all optical and has no mechanical components. ) So, you just have to make sure you not only have solid keys but also enough clearance under the keys to accomodate the mechanical levers.  The seller mentions the clearance/dimensions in his listing.  Let us know if you get the system and if so how well it works for you.  Good luck!

OK this might sound "out there" so bear with me.  Lately I have seen lots of "roll up" 61-note MIDI keyboards on eBay, etc.  Very cheap.  Is it at all possible to get one of these and cannibalize it so that the MIDI switches fit under your organ keys?  These units have MIDI out, not in, so I guess this wouldn't work if you had to send any MIDI messages to the organ.  But, to my untrained eye, it looks like it might be a cheap way to add MIDI output to an organ so you can play through MIDI sound modules/computer/etc.  Am I right or am I really missing something?  I am not at all familiar with MIDI as you can tell.  Thanks for any guidance.

- Jim

Jim,

Haven't done it myself, but I know a guy who claims he once put a MIDI strip under the wooden keys of an old Allen analog. Took the contact board and rubber bubble switches out of a cheap Casio keyboard and mounted them right under the keyboard. He had to do a little shimming and adjusting, but said he got it to work perfectly.

So, if you have keys that are solid on the bottom and space under there to mount such a strip, it might work. This would be a quick and cheap way to MIDI a single organ manual, and you'd get a General MIDI sound set for free.

To put this on a 2 or 3 manual organ you could run the MIDI outs of the 2 or 3 units into a MIDI Merger and then feed the merged MIDI into your computer or whatever sound source you're planning to use.

If you should manage to do this, please post the results and the procedure.

John

jbird604:

If you should manage to do this, please post the results and the procedure.

John

 

John and all, 

I managed to midi a Hammond X-66. So far, I've done the lower manual. I took the innards from a Korg K-61 keyboard. I had to drill a few 1/2" holes in the keybed steel plate for small capacitors to stick through. The bubble contacts from the K-61 are forward of the Hammond contacts and the difference in touch is minor. As these are USB circuits, I've tested for 4 keyboards into a USB hub, sent it to my PC using Hauptwerks. It's a blast playing the theatre organ along with the Hammond sounds, plus I use Synthogy Ivory for piano sounds plus various synths. I also use Band-In-A-Box for drums. It all plays at once if I want it to. I mounted the midi controls of the K-61 (octave select, pitch bend, modulation, volume, etc) in place of the X-66 left cheek block. Right now it looks kind of crude where the controls are mounted, but there are plans to work on aesthetics. The point is, it works and with velocity enabled, I can play second-touch voices on the theatre organ.  The most difficult part of the installation was the underside of the Hammond keys. They had rather large bolts with a lock washer which held the plastic key-top to the metal key frame. I had to find the same sized bolts with smaller heads so they wouldn't strike the circuitry. 

 file:///Users/gthree/Desktop/X-66%20Retrofit.jpg

I've never posted a photo before, but I tried to. If it comes out, good. If not, I apologize. If anyone would like to see multiple photos of the retrofit, I'd be glad to post them on .mac.

I purchased four of the K-61 keyboards and two of the K-25s. My plan is to have spare parts for difficulties in the future. By using magnetic or optical switches to control the K-25 electronics, I'll be able to midi the pedals.

The X-Keys (http://www.xkeys.com/xkeys/xkstick.php) work great for pistons in Hauptwerks. 

G3 

My picture didn't work, so try this:

http://gallery.mac.com/gthree1#100008

 G3 

g3,

Awesome! Thanks for the pix. Congratulations on this marvelous project.

How much clearance under the keys is required to install that strip? Did you have to remove all the keys to put it in?

 John

Here's my midi system for III/P and stops.  It didn't cost any more than $250. (midibox.org) 

jbird604:

g3,

Awesome! Thanks for the pix. Congratulations on this marvelous project.

How much clearance under the keys is required to install that strip? Did you have to remove all the keys to put it in?

 John

 After the metal work, the rubber midi bubbles actually just barely touch the bottom part of the key's metal housing. So, when you press a key, you get the same response from midi as you do from the Hammond. I've noticed some synths have a slight, slight delay, but that is due to latency in the software. I don't get the delay on Hauptwerks. I did have to remove all the keys for the install. There are three circuit boards under the keys. On the left card, I had to extend the ribbon cables about 18 inches. I even blew an integrated circuit, but all the ICs are available on line, so I redesigned the boards and installed sockets on them for the integrated circuit. That was to facilitate maintenance in the future. It wasn't foresighted thinking however, I blew one of the chips during testing, so that's how I came to add the sockets. I'm ready to go on the upper manual soon. The pedals will be a challenge.

 G3 

My organ (Schober Recital Model) also switches audio tones to common busses by the keyswitches.  I have often wondered if it would be possible to put capacitor signal isolation on all the signal wires and then connect the isolated bus bar to a DC voltage, picking up a DC closure on the signal wires.  Theoretically, using DC isolation capacitors would keep the DC function separate from the AC signals being routed to the output bus.  You'd probably get a short spike in the output at the time of switch closure, but there are always transients at that time anyway.

David