The Organ Forum

I think the Hammond clones have finally nailed it, the new B3 is just stunning.

The orchestra organs are nice too, when you have the room for them. You can do so much more with a synthesizer built into an organ form, than you can with a standard synth.

As for vintage restorations, I just love my Wurlitzer, and will love it even more once I get around to adding effects. For sure, a MIDIverb will do nicely, and I'll have to do something about getting a really good vibrato.

---

Nathan Wilcox

>> What about the organs that aren't trying to be pipes?

Well, they stand a chance. Why? Because it all centers around how to get the actual sound into the room.

I recently made this out for myself. I was investigating my Hauptwerk idea further and started listening to more "recordings" made with Haptwerk. Now, if you have a good Hauptwerk recording, and a good pipeorgan recording then it is hard to separate them WHEN LISTENING TO SPEAKERS. And that is the crux of the matter. Put the real organ next to the amplified Hauptwerk and you know immediately what is what.

So a real Hammond and a "fake" Hammond can come infinitely close together because they use both speakers in the last stage. The way their sound is coupled to the room is identical.

---

Expert in non-working solutions

Actually, Havoc, I think the fake Hammond has a problem in that it runs through static speakers and the real one might well be running through a leslie. No way to recreate that living sound any more than pipes.

I don't think the best of the orchestral organs is going to cut it 'live' against an orchestra either, but recorded? That's a different matter. Listen to some of Hector Olivera's Roland recordings for example.

I was thinking more about the way the EO is perceived by the public in general, as opposed to the pipe organ. I still have people come up and say 'Of course these "things" are only really any good in church.' when I've just been playing something purely orchestral! Do you find people think that's all they do? Or do you find that people treat them as 'gimmick boxes'?

Andy

---

It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

They are just "the keyboards" to everyone else.

---

Nathan Wilcox

>> I think the fake Hammond has a problem in that it runs through static speakers and the real one might well be running through a leslie. No way to recreate that living sound any more than pipes.

Well, it is the same issue: how to get the sound into the room. If you would play both through the same speakers or leslie, they would come so close it would be as hard to tell them apart as to tell two Hammonds apart. In this case it isn't the "fake Hammond" that fails, it is the fake Leslie.

While an orchestral organ may have some pretentions to replace an orchestra, I see it more as an instrumnt meant to be part of an orchestra. If you talk about recordings of pipes vs recordings of electronics we end up in the same position: the reproduction of pipes vs speakers.

I don't think you can get it out of peoples mind that organs belong in churches. They have been part of it for hunderds of years, a very large part of the repertoire is for church service and the size the have makes then better suited for church than for home. And indeed most organs only sound good if they have the room to "breath".

---

Expert in non-working solutions

Havoc, I think you made some really important points. One of your points that struck me was the fact that a lot of people equate organs with churches. In a recent edition of the American Organist, I remember the President speaking about a trip he had to Russia. He, if I remember correctly stated that in Russia there are no organs in churches, rather they are appreciated as art forms and are in concert halls, auditoriums, etc. In this way, the organ is not subject to the prejudices that we have here at home.

I know when it comes to organs I can sometimes be a bit of a purist (pipe), but it doesn't mean that I dislike Hammonds, Allens, Rodgers, etc. As a matter of fact, I've heard and played on some and to be honest, I was impressed and I did have a lot of fun. I also feel that regardless of what the organ is, we need to promote it in order to pass the torch on to the next generation so that we don't become a dying breed. I'll take a concert hall or church with an organ regardless of what it is as long as it works well, over no organ at all any day.

He, if I remember correctly stated that in Russia there are no organs in churches, rather they are appreciated as art forms and are in concert halls, auditoriums, etc. In this way, the organ is not subject to the prejudices that we have here at home.

Well, the (russian) orthodox rite doesn't have the habit of acompagnied singing. So they don't have organs in their churches. They do indeed have concert halls dedicated to the organ as solo instrument.

---

Expert in non-working solutions

Good point. Not too long ago I played for an Armenian Orthodox Church who needed an organist for that day. While it may not be exactly like the Russian rite (I've never been exposed to the Russian rite), the majority of the service was sung and most of my playing was to "support" rather than to lead. Man, that was a lot of sight-reading and the choir director had to tell me when to come in because all of the sheet music was in Armenian. It was a great and unique experience, and boy could that choir sing and sing well.   

I'll resurrect this old thread rather than start one. What I have is a news item on this subject and possibly a followup soon.

A church nearby just replaced a pipe organ console with a new Allen Quantum 325 (small 3-manual). This pipe organ was not one of the larger or more noteworthy organs in the area, just a typical smallish organ -- I'd guess a unit organ with maybe 5 or 6 ranks, from the look of it -- that was doing the job but not very colorful and getting old too.

What's interesting is that they're going to leave the pipes in and they will be playable from the Allen console. When I was there this week the digital portion only was playing. The pipe organ people were there getting ready to hook up the pipes. I assume there has been or will be some renovation to the pipes, chests, etc. at this time. Unfortunately I've never heard these pipes, so will have no basis for comparison.

On the Allen console there are controls that say "Add Pipes" and "Substitute Pipes." There may be tabs for each division, I'm not certain. I assume one will be able to play the pipes and electronics together or, with the second tab, silence the electronics and bring on the appropriate corresponding pipes for each stop drawn. This could be rather iffy, as the names on the drawknobs most likely won't exactly match up with the pipes, but could be close. If they go so far as to draw 15 or 20 pipe stops from those few ranks we'll know there's a lot of hanky-panky going on. I think I'll be able to figure out what they've done once it's all working and I can hear the results.

Anyway, this will be an interesting opportunity to compare apples and oranges in one place. I'm curious to know how the electronic stops will sound next to the pipes. If I get the chance, I want to do some testing with real live organists and see who can tell the pipes from the digital. I don't expect any earthshaking revelations, though. Especially this being not much of a pipe organ in the first place, and the Q325 being such a tiny Allen. But I will report when I hear it.

John

---

Rodgers 890 at church.
Baldwin D422 at home.
Scads of old organs in the shop! H E L P !!!

jbird604:

If I get the chance, I want to do some testing with real live organists ....

Er, the alternative would be real dead organists?

Andy

---

It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

Blessed ReedGuy,

Hi stentordiaphone64,

I have never been to an Russian Orthodox Church, but I am sure it is just as beautiful as the Armenian one I substituted for. The Armenian Orthodox services were beautiful and the singing excellent. I am grateful for the experience.

Now I've heard a few electronic/digital instruments, and played only a digitat, but there is really something about the digitals that is lacking, I prefer my organs to have pipes, preferably be entirely pipes, (i hope to play on pipes at some point this summer), but given my choice between an Allen/Rodgers type instrument and say a Lowrey, the Allen/Rodgers instrument wins hands down.jbird, that is nice that they are keeping the pipes, and heavily augmenting them with an Allen.

---

Once you can tie your arms into a pretzel and your legs into a knot, you've got it under control

Austin, 

Back in the 80's I was a salesman for an Allen dealer. We were of course continually competing against Rodgers and their pipe/electronic combinations. There were all kinds of arguments we gave the customers about the inadvisability of mixing the two --- The pipes go out of tune with even minor temperature changes, the pipes are not under expression, these dinky little pipe sets with self-contained blowers are far too puny to really make any difference, they are a unit scheme, with all the drawbacks inherent in that, etc. etc.

I was so indoctrinated to that viewpoint that I have generally looked down upon such combos. Yet it has become increasingly common for large "pipe" organs to have some electronic 32' stops, reeds, celestes, mixtures, etc. Automatic pitch compensation for the electronics works quite well to keep the two systems in tune. Since I don't sell anyone's organs any more I'm also much more objective and have actually come to appreciate the analog/pipe combos of the 80's as well as the purely analog Rodgers organs.

This new hybrid Allen setup will include the remains of what was once a pure pipe instrument, so I assume that it has real blowers and chests, and pipes all the way down to 16' as needed. It theoretically should be more organ than any of the pre-packaged combos. We shall see . . .

My real interest is in being able to instantly switch from pipes to digital without leaving the bench. I hope to experience the hard-to-describe but very real difference in the atmosphere created by the two. I hope to have more to say once it's all up and running.

John

---

Rodgers 890 at church.
Baldwin D422 at home.
Scads of old organs in the shop! H E L P !!!

Hi ReedGuy,