The Organ Forum

In each case, I would have preferred to play on these tiny pipe organs over any digital organ, no matter how large. It is my personal preference.

You are not alone in that. And while single rank organs are rare (even for practise the smallest have 2 ranks) it isn't uncommon to judge organs by playing on a single rank. If you can't have fun and captaivate an audience for half an hour with onle the prestant 8' then or your playing or the prestant isn't much.

i personally would rather play a hammond b3 with a leslie 122 than a 100k pipe organ, and you know why that is? i prefer a hammond. a hammond is a hammond organ, not pipe organ's ugly little brother,

Don't see anything wrong with that. But even you wouldn't play the same music on both. Yes, you can do it but it takes skill both on the pipe organ and on the Hammond. They are very different. But the discussion here is more focussing on the electronic replacements for pipe organs. While Hammonds have been used for that it never was their main use.

I would be quite happy to swap my digital organ for a one stop chamber organ. :)

Same here. I haven't played on my electronic for 10 years or so. If I would have had such a pipe organ I might have more interest to play and would have been a better player.

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Expert in non-working solutions

soubasse32:

m&m's:

By the way, you come across as looking down upon good digital organs and the people who see nothing wrong and a lot right with them.

I don't look down upon people who like digital organs, but I do take issue with such statements as this:

m&m's:

The glory of an organ is first and foremost its principal chorus, and you cannot get that out of one rank, or even a three ranker (unless, possibly, the first rank is unified to 8', 4', and 2', and the other two ranks form a mixture).

The glory of an organ is not necessarily its principal chorus.  Have you not heard baroque chamber music accompanied on a small pipe organ?  Some of the most profound glories of the pipe organ can be found in its subtleties.

Give a listen to the Concerti da Chiesa by Georg Muffat or Couperin's Leçons de Ténèbres; the Couperin is masterfully played by fellow Organ Forum member Olivier Vernet and the album has received many prestigious awards.  This is organ music of the highest order, without a hint of a principal chorus to be found anywhere...

Soubasse, I can see that we are approaching this subject from entirely different perspectives. I approach it, not as a professional organist-performer, but as a church musician and ordained minister. I am not talking about concert halls, or teaching institutions. I am talking about the use of the organ in an average Protestant church service, and definitely not in a cathedral setting.

In a church service, the principal chorus is going to be the focus of organ registration, not flutes, or reeds, or strings, or chimes.

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Mike

owner of an Allen MDS317 and working
on a custom digital using a Rodgers 220
console. I play a forty rank pipe organ on Sunday mornings.

Havoc:

In each case, I would have preferred to play on these tiny pipe organs over any digital organ, no matter how large. It is my personal preference.

You are not alone in that. And while single rank organs are rare (even for practise the smallest have 2 ranks) it isn't uncommon to judge organs by playing on a single rank. If you can't have fun and captaivate an audience for half an hour with onle the prestant 8' then or your playing or the prestant isn't much.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Soubasse. I approach the subject of organ design and registration  from the viewpoint of an ordained minister-church musician. When I make comments about registration, it is with the average American Protestant church in mind, unless I am specifically referring to my home organ(s).

You, like Soubasse, apparently are talking about concert and teaching organs. I have no quarrel with what you say, for those purposes. But, if a church has to choose between a one or two rank pipe organ (or even a mediocre three or four rank organ), or a good digital computer organ, give me the digital any day.

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Mike

owner of an Allen MDS317 and working
on a custom digital using a Rodgers 220
console. I play a forty rank pipe organ on Sunday mornings.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Soubasse. I approach the subject of organ design and registration from the viewpoint of an ordained minister-church musician. When I make comments about registration, it is with the average American Protestant church in mind, unless I am specifically referring to my home organ(s).

You, like Soubasse, apparently are talking about concert and teaching organs. I have no quarrel with what you say, for those purposes. But, if a church has to choose between a one or two rank pipe organ (or even a mediocre three or four rank organ), or a good digital computer organ, give me the digital any day.

No need to write it twice. But I think we see it larger than you do. It isn't because organs are predominantly found in churches that that is their only use. Those church instruments are often used for teaching and concerts. There are several good reasons for that. And opening a church organ for that purpose can have benefits for the church. So you have to look at it from all sides. The church that put up a single manual (no pedal) 6 rank spanich pipe organ in mean tone took that approach. It works very well for their liturgical use and it draws attention to a church that otherwise no-one would know of.

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Expert in non-working solutions

The answer was eloquently provided by Magritte 80 years ago.  We can do no better:

Or maybe this forum could be re-named The Treachery of Instruments.

Sometimes a digital organ is considered desirable by the organist because a large console with a hugh display of drawknobs is available. With a pipe organ, the number of drawknobs is limited. Even though the electronic organ does not build up an ensemble sound as well as the pipe organ, the console is more impressive.

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Style D Wurlitzer Pipe Organ
http://www.bluemoonwalkinghorses.com/Style_D_Description5_rev2.html

AllanP:

Sometimes a digital organ is considered desirable by the organist because a large console with a hugh display of drawknobs is available. With a pipe organ, the number of drawknobs is limited. Even though the electronic organ does not build up an ensemble sound as well as the pipe organ, the console is more impressive.

I wouldn't know-I have never regularly played a digital organ with drawknobs. I did play a pipe organ one time for eight months that had a drawknob console, and I hated the organ, which was at that time less than ten years old. The voicing was not good, the reeds were very uneven in speech and tone, and the overall specification left quite a bit to be desired. I had just come from an eighteen month job on an Allen digital with stoptabs. The ensemble sound on the Allen was better than on the pipe organ, and of course it stayed in tune and regulation. That pipe organ has since had a lot of revoicing down by an independent organ serviceman, and today sounds far better, but the specification still is not ideal, especially for the size of the organ. I think I would still prefer the Allen, even though by now it is twenty years old.

By the way, the Minister of Music at the church with the Allen had a doctorate in organ performance, having studied in Europe, and he wanted a pipe organ. He did admit, however, that, if the organ had had drawknobs, he might have been happy with it. (There is no question that the Lord has a sense of humor, giving that church a choir director who had majored in organ, and an organist who had majored in voice!)

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Mike

owner of an Allen MDS317 and working
on a custom digital using a Rodgers 220
console. I play a forty rank pipe organ on Sunday mornings.

Havoc:

No need to write it twice. But I think we see it larger than you do. It isn't because organs are predominantly found in churches that that is their only use. Those church instruments are often used for teaching and concerts. There are several good reasons for that. And opening a church organ for that purpose can have benefits for the church. So you have to look at it from all sides. The church that put up a single manual (no pedal) 6 rank spanich pipe organ in mean tone took that approach. It works very well for their liturgical use and it draws attention to a church that otherwise no-one would know of.

But, in America (and, I would presume, anywhere else), a church instrument is first and foremost for the accompaniment of the worship services. It has to serve that purpose before anything else. My comments are based on that usage, not on usage primarily as a concert instrument. If a particular church wants to major in meantone Baroque music, and puts an organ in for that purpose, more power to them. But that is not, and probably (hopefully) never will be, the position of the average church in America. It is not a question of who sees it larger than who. It is rather a question of what is the best stewardship of money that is given by the Lord's people for the Lord's work.

 P. S. I may have to take back some of my comments about a one or two rank organ. This morning I visited my parents' church, and played for their service on a 40plus year old Allen, which had two electronic ranks, flute and diapason, unified to the hilt. Registered properly (diapason 8', 4', &2' with flute 2 2/3' on the Great, and flute 16' & 5 1/3' with diapason 8' &4' on the pedals), it actually did not sound bad. Since the congregation does not have a regular organist, they were absolutely thrilled. 

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Mike

owner of an Allen MDS317 and working
on a custom digital using a Rodgers 220
console. I play a forty rank pipe organ on Sunday mornings.

Mike, thanks for your nod to the old Allen.   They may not be Cathedral organs but they are fun to play and as you have indicated when artistry is brought to the situation, God is glorified!     (I've owned 5 old Allens and been happy with all but one which I bought for parts anyway)

OrgansR4Me:

Mike, thanks for your nod to the old Allen.   They may not be Cathedral organs but they are fun to play and as you have indicated when artistry is brought to the situation, God is glorified!     (I've owned 5 old Allens and been happy with all but one which I bought for parts anyway)

I have played several of these over the years, and owned one for a while, which I made the mistake of trading for a new digital instrument (not an Allen). Properly set up and voiced, they sounded like small pipe organs, and were much better than the first generation of digitals from Allen or many other manufacturers. Thousands of them are still playing, and the churches that have them are still happy with them.

I owned a T-4 for a while, and thoroughly enjoyed it. It had three ranks of generators-diapason, flute, and reed. Played through three audio channels, it sounded like a three rank pipe organ. The diapasons could be changed to violas or dulcianas, the flutes could be open or stopped, and the unit trumpet could become an oboe rank. I really wish that I had kept it and added a rank of celeste generators.

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Mike

owner of an Allen MDS317 and working
on a custom digital using a Rodgers 220
console. I play a forty rank pipe organ on Sunday mornings.

My Conn 720 has the alterable diapason voicing.   It can be Horn, String, or English and I use the English the most; however the horn is really awesome as the organ has a really large horn speaker built in.   It is an old tube organ but it has a warm, rich tone that is hard to beat!   I have an early Rockwell style Allen digital right now but it needs considerable work.    The combination action and one amplifier are on the fritz.   But I acquired it for just $900 and when I can put aside some extra cash, plan to do an overhaul on it.    My old analog Allen is a custom carousel which is a little delicate with age also, but still puts out lots of sound.    I received the organ free because it wasn't playing and was able to acquire a new diode for the flute amp several months later.    I had a professional repairman look at the organ and he circled the defective part on the schematic because he said he couldn't find it to test.    It was a very rare diode that looks something like a small spark plug and a tv repairman located it for me.   He couldn't get the part, so I sent to Allen and soldered it in myself.

I have used nearly every organ I've had in music ministry and felt very blessed that God gave me the opportunity to experience such a wide range of instruments.    Maybe it was because of stories my Dad told me when I was very young of seeing an Allen on display in a department store in the early years of electronic organ development surrounded by velvet ropes because it was considered too valuable for the public to touch.   Since then Allen has been tops in my book.

I am very fortunate to have a home pipe organ of an adequate size to give a lot of registrational variety but still small enough to fit into the house. The basic build up of tone by adding stops is still superior to most electronics.

Another advantage is the easy availability of repair parts. There are no electronics (only some diode switches) so that obselence is not a problem. The action and console are very reliable so that maintanence requirements are a minimum. The only potential problem is the relay system which is somewhat difficult to maintain, but so far it still works.

In conclusion, the design is not obselete after 81 years of use, parts are available, and the sound is fantastic! 

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Style D Wurlitzer Pipe Organ
http://www.bluemoonwalkinghorses.com/Style_D_Description5_rev2.html

shwaggetyshfifty:

i personally would rather play a hammond b3 with a leslie 122 than a 100k pipe organ, and you know why that is? i prefer a hammond. a hammond is a hammond organ, not pipe organ's ugly little brother, and a pipe organ will never be able to reproduce the rich overdrive of a leslie cabinet. when you try to compare an electronic organ to your "magnificent" pipe organ, you might as well be comparing a car tire to a refrigerator.

You're not alone shwaggetyshfifty, I'd rather play an Allen electronic any day over a pipe organ simply because I like the sound and I get much enjoyment from playing those instrument. That goes for analogue instruments as well - its probably because I like the "retro sound" even if it doesn't sound realistic.

I am a huge fan of the "Allen sound", and I can only get that by, well playing an Allen.

A good organist should be able to produce good music from both a pipe organ and an electronic organ.

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Currently own:
ALLEN TC-3S (#42904 - 3rd Feb 1971) with Sequential Capture System

Speakers:
x1 Model 100 Gyro Cabinet
x1 Model 105 Cabinet
x3 Model 108 Cabinet

nullogik:

shwaggetyshfifty:

i personally would rather play a hammond b3 with a leslie 122 than a 100k pipe organ, and you know why that is? i prefer a hammond. a hammond is a hammond organ, not pipe organ's ugly little brother, and a pipe organ will never be able to reproduce the rich overdrive of a leslie cabinet. when you try to compare an electronic organ to your "magnificent" pipe organ, you might as well be comparing a car tire to a refrigerator.

You're not alone shwaggetyshfifty, I'd rather play an Allen electronic any day over a pipe organ simply because I like the sound and I get much enjoyment from playing those instrument. That goes for analogue instruments as well - its probably because I like the "retro sound" even if it doesn't sound realistic.

I am a huge fan of the "Allen sound", and I can only get that by, well playing an Allen.

A good organist should be able to produce good music from both a pipe organ and an electronic organ.

 Agreements to both, and mark me down as another Hammond fan!!

(If more churches had Hammonds, I might start attending again :D  )

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B4 II with Axiom Controller
Hammond T212