The Organ Forum

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5125601

If someone would like the email in its unedited form indicating the sender send me a private message please.

It's a shame we don't have 15,000 seat churches in the USA for the "monarch ultima" to fit in...oh wait, we do.  And they don't spend their millions on 500+ rank pipe organs.

$10 says there's either there's gonna be a praise band stuck in the middle there, or they'll get an organ that doesn't exceed 200 ranks of real pipes with digitals thrown in.  $5 bonus if there's a reposting of the "monarch ultima" stoplist.

I am unable to vouch for the ''ultima'' but some background about Korea will help.

There is and has been an enormous religious revival of ''churchianity'' in the orient and Korea is at the forefront. If a big organ goes in then so much the better. If not then I was fooled and you can laugh to your heart's delight.

http://www.organ-builders.com/organbuilding_projects.html

The above link shows the type of good work being done. This outfit was one of the firms that tendered a proposal and i have requested a copy of said spec for reference sake.

http://www.sungrak.or.kr/language/english/church/stucture_view01.asp

steverequiem:

It's a shame we don't have 15,000 seat churches in the USA for the "monarch ultima" to fit in...oh wait, we do.  And they don't spend their millions on 500+ rank pipe organs.

$10 says there's either there's gonna be a praise band stuck in the middle there, or they'll get an organ that doesn't exceed 200 ranks of real pipes with digitals thrown in.  $5 bonus if there's a reposting of the "monarch ultima" stoplist.

Where do you get the 500+ rank from?   And you sound like you are happy the mega-churches aren't buying pipe organs.   Get ready to pay out your $10.   You seem to think that churches in other countries automatically follow the trends in the U.S.   Well, they don't.

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I am NOT a PC programmer. I program on Mainframe computers!

Non omnes qui habemt citharam sunt citharoedi

radagast:

steverequiem:

It's a shame we don't have 15,000 seat churches in the USA for the "monarch ultima" to fit in...oh wait, we do.  And they don't spend their millions on 500+ rank pipe organs.

$10 says there's either there's gonna be a praise band stuck in the middle there, or they'll get an organ that doesn't exceed 200 ranks of real pipes with digitals thrown in.  $5 bonus if there's a reposting of the "monarch ultima" stoplist.

Where do you get the 500+ rank from?   And you sound like you are happy the mega-churches aren't buying pipe organs.   Get ready to pay out your $10.   You seem to think that churches in other countries automatically follow the trends in the U.S.   Well, they don't.

Trends that develop can vary from place to place. Here in this small city there was a slew of new organs. A significant rebuild in 1969. Moderate modifications in 1972. A new organ in 1973. Then a lull. A new tracker in 1985 followed by a new 3m 1986 and a new 3m with chamade in 1988.

Seems like the countries where tradition dictates what shall be and that are organ-friendly still have a brisk business. Those emerging nations where things formerly had been stagnant are now catching up and in the game of one upmanship. If the super mega-organ in Korea is to be real or not so far no replies from the Sungrak Church whose new sanctuary will seat 15000 when it is completed in 2010. We cant compare the USA to Korea. There are different dynamics at work there. They are determined to build mega-churches with the biggest and the best. Many organ builders have reps there from Europe and also the USA.

radagast:

steverequiem:

It's a shame we don't have 15,000 seat churches in the USA for the "monarch ultima" to fit in...oh wait, we do.  And they don't spend their millions on 500+ rank pipe organs.

$10 says there's either there's gonna be a praise band stuck in the middle there, or they'll get an organ that doesn't exceed 200 ranks of real pipes with digitals thrown in.  $5 bonus if there's a reposting of the "monarch ultima" stoplist.

Where do you get the 500+ rank from?   And you sound like you are happy the mega-churches aren't buying pipe organs.   Get ready to pay out your $10.   You seem to think that churches in other countries automatically follow the trends in the U.S.   Well, they don't.

Sesquialtera sent an email asking about an organ bigger than any organ on earth.  Prior posts by him, all dealing with the mythical "monarch ultima" tells me he believes the organ going in this mega church will be the largest organ in the world by far.  There was even an infamous stoplist posted.  To be the largest organ in the world, it would have to beat Wanamaker, which is currently ~461 ranks and growing.  Building a 462 rank organ to beat Wanamaker would be kind of lame, so that's where I came up with 500+.  If it really gets you so much, I'll amend my post to say there aren't any mega-churches spending their millions on 462+ rank pipe organs.

As far as me being happy mega-churches aren't buying pipe organs, I don't really think it matters, as the Rodgers or Allen organs they use seem to work just fine for their music styles.  I'm not doubting the fact that the Korean mega-church will put in a pipe organ.  I'll even say I think it's likely the organ will be very big, even 200+ ranks with digital add-ons.  And if that happens, so what?  Every moderately sized city here seems to have some 4-5 manual, 150+ rank organ sitting in a church, they're not really a big deal any more.  It will be impressive and hopefully sound good, but "Monarch Ultima" status?  Please.

disclaimer:  Again, I could be wrong, and I have $10 sitting here just in case.  But if it does indeed surpass Wanamaker as the largest in the world, it will most likely be due to several "supplimental" divisions around the room to support the main organ, aka. the Charlotte Moller.  But I'm guessing the novelty will wear off by the time they get to the "Ancillary VII" division, which is just another principal chorus with a couple flutes and a reed thrown in.

It is a long-shot indeed but how can anybody know with certainty what is? I am open to the idea but I note inconsistencies. I did not post a spec that I made. I received it from the General Manager of the firm in Korea. He later became severely ill and his email to me back and forth were hacked. His boss was unhappy and so that was the end of the dialogue. The only data that gibes is the over 10000 seats as i was told and originally a completeion date earlier than 2010. The client so far has not replied to a general inquiry about their new pipe organ so I am unable to debunk the ''ultima'' story as yet. As to my belief it's probabaly better to ask rather than make as assumption.

Call me cynical, but I find it hard to believe any firm contracted to build anything over 462 ranks (or anything over 200, for that matter) would have the least bit of reticence to announce being awarded such a contract. Moreover, in an undertaking of this magnitude (building of a church this size) would, to my thinking, require a pipe organ builder be selected by the time the Architects begin construction documents, a point well before ground is broken.  

The above picture indicates construction is now well underway. Given current industry backlogs, it would be sensible to assume that any contract would have to have been awarded 3 or more years ago in order the deliver even an (ahem)  *modest* 200 ranks by say, 2012.  Given the context of and originator this "discussion" I will wager the above email was with addresses stripped out was sent from someone who works for Treanor in Korea. If so, this entire topic is a red herring.

  I find the perpetuation of this hoax tiresome and distasteful. The language being used here is, I suspect, deliberately disingenuous.  What is really under discussion here?  The theoretical possibility of the future existence of an organ, or just the fact that a building is being built somewhere in the world?  I think a simple email to the church leadership would end the "debate" once and for all.

 By the way, the above pictures appear to be, respectively:

- A computer 3D rendering of the proposed building

- A satellite photo of what appears to be the headquarters building for the aforementioned church, which "will contain a sanctuary capable of seating 15,000"

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Edward Odell
J.H. & C.S. Odell

odellorgans:

Cal me cynical, but I find it hard to believe any firm contracted to build anything over 462 ranks (or anything over 200, for that matter) would have the least bit of reticence to announce being awarded such a contract. Moreover, in an undertaking of this magnitude (building of a church this size) would, to my thinking, require a pipe organ builder be selected by the time the Architects begin construction documents, a point well before ground is broken.  

The above picture indicates construction is now well underway. Given current industry backlogs, it would be sensible to assume that any contract would have to have been awarded 3 or more years ago in order the deliver even an (ahem)  *modest* 200 ranks by say, 2012.  Given the context of and originator this "discussion" I will wager the above email was with addresses stripped out was sent from someone who works for Treanor in Korea. If so, this entire topic is a red herring.

  I find the perpetuation of this hoax tiresome and distasteful. The language being used here is, I suspect, deliberately disingenuous.  What is really under discussion here?  The theoretical possibility of the future existence of an organ, or just the fact that a building is being built somewhere in the world?  I think a simple email to the church leadership would end the "debate" once and for all.

 By the way, the above pictures appear to be, respectively:

- A computer 3D rendering of the proposed building

- A satellite photo of what appears to be the headquarters building for the aforementioned church, which "will contain a sanctuary capable of seating 15,000"

Sir:

Your post is well-received.

The pic is a satellite pic from early 2007

The email was from Hey Orgelbeu

I have not explicitly stated that the monarch deal is the one going in here

I re-examined this matter to see if there was a client getting a new pipe organ in a large setting

So someone got the deal

Hey didnt know who nor has he emailed his proposal

Sungrak has not replied as of yet who is building the new organ for their large space

I have tried to change the direction of my interests here but it appears it is to no avail

You are determined to find fault with everything

Just hollow rhetoric

 

Just to be clear, the emails were originally posted with addresses.  I removed them in respect of the sender's privacy.  Posting email addresses openly on the internet is invitation to spammers and other soundrels.

 

 

sesquialtera16:

Sir:

Your post is well-received.

The pic is a satellite pic from early 2007

The email was from Hey Orgelbeu

I have not explicitly stated that the monarch deal is the one going in here

I re-examined this matter to see if there was a client getting a new pipe organ in a large setting

So someone got the deal

Hey didnt know who nor has he emailed his proposal

Sungrak has not replied as of yet who is building the new organ for their large space

I have tried to change the direction of my interests here but it appears it is to no avail

You are determined to find fault with everything

Just hollow rhetoric

I am merely applying logic to the situation. I regret you find that upsetting. You may, of course, characterize my posts however you like;  the reality is that you cannot summon an organ for a space that size out of the ether.  All I am saying is, if an outsize pipe organ project were a reality, it would be more widely known.

 The Church is obviously for real, and they may even have planned for a pipe organ, which would be great.  I am all for that.  I don't presume to speak for the membership here, or claim to be a mind reader, but anyone familiar with this forum will be hard pressed  not to connect "Korea"  and "mega organ" with the Monarch Ultima hoax/thread/moniker-of-your-choice.

Playing Devil's advocate, let's assume for a few moments the possibilities and realities of such a situation.  How does one  reconcile the vastly differing acoustic requirements of a centrally located acoustic instrument (i.e. a pipe organ) and projecting the spoken word into a 15,000 seat space? Anyone with knowledge or experience in acoustical consulting will tell you the two are, in such a context, almost mutually exclusive, and moreover, the problem would not be solved by increasing the size of the organ to, lets face it, a preposterous number of ranks.

 Consider further examples of recent Concert Hall organs by Fisk and Dobson. Both Verizon and Benaroya house organs for rooms of 2,500 seats, yet neither organ is more than 100 ranks. Some in the past had even suggested Benaroya was initially too loud!

Sesq, until the day you can prove us all wrong with a formal announcement from wherever, you'll win few friends or defenders here by perpetuating discussion of this fictional organ.  We might as well be talking about Bicknell's famed Hackenback organ.  Frankly, the latter would be more entertaining.

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Edward Odell
J.H. & C.S. Odell