The Organ Forum

I was wondering when we'd have a poll on this exact topic.

No prizes for guessing who I voted for...

Subjects like these will no doubt cause controversy, so be prepared for flame wars. ...much like the Rodgers vs Allen and Pipe vs Electronic debates

Aren't "Alhborn" and "Galanti" now just known as the one company, "Ahlborn Galanti"?

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Currently own:
ALLEN TC-3S (#42904 - 3rd Feb 1971) with Sequential Capture System

Speakers:
x1 Model 100 Gyro Cabinet
x1 Model 105 Cabinet
x3 Model 108 Cabinet

On a price for price comparison, Ahlborn-Galanti are way ahead of any of the other European manufacturers.

Maybe.  But I would take in other considerations, the quality of the technology, for example.

Westgallery:

On a price for price comparison, Ahlborn-Galanti are way ahead of any of the other European manufacturers.

Have you actually checked out the price of comparable Phoenix prices in Great Britain!?! When prepping for the purchase of a new organ, I was rather favourably impressed with Phoenix prices in GB.

 

Don't have a lot of exposure to digitals.  But so far, I like Walker the best.

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....."next" is a four letter word. Jay999

Don't want to offend anyone by revealing my preference here, if I really have one. I regularly work for several of these companies and have seen and heard a lot of good digital organs. They have certainly come a long way since analog days, and almost all today are vastly superior to the earliest digitals.

As I have said before on this forum, and will say again, the installation itself is of so much significance that it can easily overshadow the differences among the brands. The most  advanced technology will sound like junk if the installation, setup, and voicing are not done properly. And the acoustical setting is perhaps more important than any other single factor.

John

 

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Rodgers 890 at church.
Baldwin D422 at home.
Scads of old organs in the shop! H E L P !!!

Hi John....you said most of it when you said "the acoustical setting is perhaps more important than any other single factor".

It's so incredible to observe the voicing of these instruments, when you're fully aware of what it would take to do the same thing with organ pipes.  I watched Bob Walker voice a big pedal 32' down at Bethesda by The Sea, in Palm Beach.  He changed the tonality from a Contra Diapason (sounding like metal pipes), to an Open Wood.  Then he regulated each note for start up speech, windiness, harmonic content, and power.  He was done in 20 minutes.

I made the comment to him that it would have taken me 6 months to accomplish the same job with organ pipes. 

Still, however, in all digital organs, there remains a funny sound that I hear in the second octave, when a lot of stops are going.  It has kind of a tiercy sounding harmonic, and everytime I hear it, it sounds like someone is holding a very sensative microphone next to an electric iron.  Three or four times I have found a quiet time to be able to sit at the console and try to replicate the notes in the tenor octave that might cause this peculiar harmonic....but I've never been able to duplicate it when I pick at the notes.  If I forget all about it, and start playing, I will occasionally pick up that harmonic, but it never reveals itself when I try to isolate it by just playing the notes in that range, by themselves.

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....."next" is a four letter word. Jay999

Westgallery:

On a price for price comparison, Ahlborn-Galanti are way ahead of any of the other European manufacturers.

...but you've got to think about the shortcuts they've had to make to pull ahead of all the other manufacturers with similarly priced instruments. For example build quality and materials used for construction are often one place where manufacturers cut back on,

For example, we recently compared a new Viscount and an Allen QLF320 both of similar price. The Viscount had about 20 more stops and was smoothered in fancy lights etc. On the other hand the Allen had about 30 stops and fewer "bits of eye candy" but was considerably better finished and felt more solid. Some of the veneer is already beginning to chip away on our Viscount...and the roll top lid may look like wood but its plastic with a wood finish...the joints in the bench seem to have too much play for a new instrument...just some of the areas where these manufacturers cut back on.
 

 

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Currently own:
ALLEN TC-3S (#42904 - 3rd Feb 1971) with Sequential Capture System

Speakers:
x1 Model 100 Gyro Cabinet
x1 Model 105 Cabinet
x3 Model 108 Cabinet

Haven't voted, because my experience with digitals is virtually nil, but I agree with the comment that acoustics of the room and the installation itself are huge parts of the equation. That's true for every organ everywhere.

However, if the installation is residential, and the acoustics are "unsympathetic", would the results change? 

Jay999:

Still, however, in all digital organs, there remains a funny sound that I hear in the second octave, when a lot of stops are going.  It has kind of a tiercy sounding harmonic, and everytime I hear it, it sounds like someone is holding a very sensative microphone next to an electric iron.  Three or four times I have found a quiet time to be able to sit at the console and try to replicate the notes in the tenor octave that might cause this peculiar harmonic....but I've never been able to duplicate it when I pick at the notes.  If I forget all about it, and start playing, I will occasionally pick up that harmonic, but it never reveals itself when I try to isolate it by just playing the notes in that range, by themselves.

Jay,

What you are most likely hearing is something called inter-modulation distortion.  This is a product of combining different frequencies together either in the electronics domain or through speakers, which produces a non-harmonic result.  It is most noticeable when combining rather pure tones such as a flute (think sine-wave).  Pipes don't have this type of problem, as each pipe makes it's own tone in an acoustical setting.  But in electronic organs,  there is generally so much shoving of signal, either at the generator/mixer board level, or at the amplifier/speaker level, it will be audible.  Generally, with decent equipment, these non-harmonic resultants will not be that noticeable when only a few tones are produced, but building up an ensemble, it will be there, and the fewer audio channels, the more it will be heard.  Some people, are very sensitive to this kind of distortion.

Another problem that afflicts electronic organs, is something that is also a product of signal mixing in a one dimensional plane - it is called phase cancellation and phase summing.  Some people wonder why these fancy digital organs need way more stops than a comparable pipe organ to produce a half decent ensemble.  Well, it is this phenomena that I alluded to.  Again it produces a certain sonic glare, that is hard to like - especially if one is partial to acoustic instruments.  Again, more audio channels, separation of signals is a good part of the solution.

The general solution that electronic organ manufacturers provide is something called - digital reverb.  Yes, play the organ softer, and cover the inadequacies with a delay line.  It however doesn't make it sound more like the real thing, just adds to people's lively imagination that they may be playing in a cathedral or at least a much bigger room.

This is not to say, I don't have some appreciation for digital organs.  But they (at least to my ears) for the most part don't sound like the real thing, especially when it comes to ensemble sound.

AV 

 

<IGNORE>

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Currently own:
ALLEN TC-3S (#42904 - 3rd Feb 1971) with Sequential Capture System

Speakers:
x1 Model 100 Gyro Cabinet
x1 Model 105 Cabinet
x3 Model 108 Cabinet

I noticed that "Devils Work" and Rodgers are equal in the poll right now.  Wonder what that means?

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Allen Organs (505-B & ADC-6000), Frazee Pipe Organ (2/13 w/chimes),
Pump Organs (Estey, Sears & Roebuck, Mason & Hamlin, Chicago Cottage, Williams & Sons, Angelius, Cornish)
Pianos (Ivers sq. grand ca.1865, Ivers & Pond Upright-1929, Technics SX-PR600)

Yes, and I notice that nobody seems content to own a Content, and Eminent organs apparently ... are not. 

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Soubasse32

Although this thread has produced some interesting comments, perhaps the question should be “favourite manufacturer for what” as digital organs seem to have two distinct uses, either as pipe replacements in churches or home / practice instrument and these are very different markets for any maker to serve.

 

At the church I attend, I am privileged to be allowed to play for one service a month. The instrument is a 99 year old, 2 manual, 14 stop Peter Conacher tracker action pipe organ which is located high up in the west gallery of a resonant church and playing it is a thrilling experience.

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N02478

 

Perhaps there is truth in the adage that the best stop on any organ is the building?

I have no experience of digital instruments within a church setting but our regular organist has and tells me they can produce good results.

 

In my home, I have a two manual instrument which is housed in a plain, nicely finished wooden cabinet, 29 speaking stops with over 140 selectable organ samples to choose from and each stop and each note can be individually tuned. There are Swell sub and super octave couplers and comfortable keyboards and all this for less than £9,000. Very enjoyable to play, but being restricted by the soft-furnished environment of a modern house with low ceilings it will never sound the same as an organ in a good acoustic setting.

 

So, in the end we have an apples and pears situation and which is “the best manufacturer” will surely depend on intended use and location?

 

Thank you for an enjoyable and informative forum.

 

Peter.