The Organ Forum

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Allen Organs (505-B & ADC-6000), Frazee Pipe Organ (2/13 w/chimes),
Pump Organs (Estey, Sears & Roebuck, Mason & Hamlin, Chicago Cottage, Williams & Sons, Angelius, Cornish)
Pianos (Ivers sq. grand ca.1865, Ivers & Pond Upright-1929, Technics SX-PR600)

Somehow, I think I can guess the end results.

 

 

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Nathan Wilcox

Well, I had to vote so I could see the results. Not too surprising, though as time goes by someone may vote "digital" just to be contrary. The key words here are "good quality" . . .  Obviously, all other things being equal, most anyone would prefer a real pipe organ.

If you had asked if I prefered a dinky, inadequate, poorly designed,  badly maintained, out of tune, tubby old generic pipe organ OR a well-designed, adequately-sized digital with plenty of audio, properly voiced and set up -- well, then it would have been a different story.

Though it's tempting to say that "anything with pipes" beats "anything without pipes," I wouldn't go that far. And I know that some will disagree even with that. But if we all agreed on everything most of us would be redundant.

John

 

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Rodgers 890 at church.
Baldwin D422 at home.
Scads of old organs in the shop! H E L P !!!

I started my pipe organ experience as follows:

1923 Hillgreen-Lane

Enclosed Great

open diapason 8=linen lead large scale

dulciana =open wood bearded bass mitred

melodia 8= stopped bass

chimes

blank

gt 4

sw 16-8-4

 

Swell

open diapason 8=open wood bearded bass

salicional 8=narrow bearded ''oboe gamba''

voxcelestis tc 8==small scale

gedeckt 8- large scale

rohrflute 4-bass from pierce stoppered wood; balance common metal w/ chimneys

tremolo

16-4 sw

Echo

5 blank tabs

Pedal

Bourdon 16-large scale

flute 8 -ext 16'

gt

sw

 

 

Voicing was stunning

I would still prefer a real set of pipes over a well designed  and set up digital, even for theater (or theatre), but I consder myself a classical/liturgical type organist 9not that I have any objections to theater, I just like classical organs better). Now if you asked me would I take most any reasonalbly maintained set of pipes (well thought out) over the two manual Allen I play regularly, well, that answer is so obvious, I don't even need to post it here, I've posted it many other places on this forum, I like pipes!

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Once you can tie your arms into a pretzel and your legs into a knot, you've got it under control

I will take even a bad pipe organ over a digital/electronic organ!  (you may have noticed I don't refer to them as "organs")

I'm feeling especially sore about this topic, as I just returned from a bad experience playing one of these instruments.  Here is what happened:

• I couldn't get the thing to turn on.
• I had to crawl around behind the console.
• I hate crawling behind consoles when I'm wearing a nice suit 
• I found several power plugs, but being unable to trace them back to the console I had to try each one individually.  Success.
• Next, I discover that I cannot set pistons.
• I try every combination, and finally figure out that if I hit "Set" and "M1" (memory 1), the memory 1 piston will blink.  But what does that mean?
• It wouldn't stop blinking!
• After 8 minutes of pressing every combination imaginable, it stops blinking.  I have no idea what I did.
• I discover that I can now set pistons!
• I need to set pistons on memory level 2, but find that I have to spend another 8 minutes figuring out how to make M2 stop blinking!
• As I need to start the prelude in about 15 minutes, I'm beginning to fume. 
• Now I discover that the real pipes aren't playing.  I have to set "pipes on" tablets in order for them to play.
• Unfortunately, every time I hit a piston it cancels the "pipes on" tabs! 
• No, "pipes on" doesn't set on pistons! 
• I discovered while playing the prelude that certain stops didn't play at all, even though they seemed willing to do so during my 2 minutes of practice!  I have a feeling that some piston or tab needed to be "on", and wasn't.  But who has time for that? 
• I next discover that some stops stay on, even though I've cancelled all stops in the division.  I realize it might have something to do with three weird pistons, called "Solo", "Accomp", and something else (I forget).  Pressing these things changes the sound a bit, but I never can discern WHY.
• There are pistons everywhere called "Alt Mix" (whatever that means) but I cannot find basic pistons such as Swell to Pedal, etc.
• There are also weird things such as "antiphonal", "Main", "Unexposed Great", and a whole bunch more things that don't quite do what one thinks they should, even after methodical experimentation.
• I'm beginning to think it should be required to keep the instruction manual nearby!   Hmm, I thought I was an experienced organist, but maybe...?
• There are lots of other goodies - "symphonic crescendo" - which sounds more baroque than the standard crescendo; a transposer masquerading as a row of general pistons.  (careful - - oops!)
• Very unfortunately, I find that I cannot just sit down, register, and then play this contraption anywhere as easily as I might do on ANY pipe organ. 

Then there is the sound.    There were ultra chiffy stops on the Great - I guarantee no real pipe has ever made that kind of alien sound!  The reeds sounded a bit like a bee in a bottle, or a kazoo - so I used none of them.

Another thing I always notice on this sort of instrument - whenever I make a decrescendo the sound fades away to nearly infinity - even if I have something approaching full organ.  It sounds like someone just turned a radio all the way down!

The fit and finish left a lot to be desired - flabby keys, etc.

I have played some very fine - even extraordinary digital installations, but I always walk away scratching my head... 

PS: Which reminds me... I had to play a much nicer one last week, but I had difficulty with that too.  I couldn't easily register 'on the fly' - the Pedal never balanced, and the instrument either roared or whispered.  For such a huge installation, I was dismayed that I couldn't easily get a "normal" accompanimental sound out of it, and resorted to pumping the crescendo pedal... 

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Soubasse32

hahaha someone voted Digital!! who was it!? fess up and explain yourself!

Subby, you poor man! What dreadful experience. Not entirely the organ's fault, though, and not yours either. You were playing a pipe augmented Rodgers organ of the 1980's with "MICASKO" technology. I recognize every feature you describe as it is exactly like our Rodgers 890 at church.

But yes, the user's manual should have been close by, as there are indeed a number of rather obscure features that one might find confusing coming from a pipe-only background. I assure you, though, that you could have been instructed in five minutes to properly use and even appreciate all the features (?) that bum-fuzzled you so.

In case you ever have to play a MICASKO Rodgers again, to unlock the capture system you hold "Set" and press "M1" which will begin to flash. Then tap general piston #1 and the pistons can then be set on M1. Do the same for M2, except to stop the flashing you press general #2.  This assumes that the regular organist has not gone to the trouble of setting up personal locking codes for either memory. If that has been done, you are at the mercy of that organist. (Though in the bench there should have been a magnetic "key" to unlock the capture, even if had been given private codes. The user's guide would have explained that.)

The "Solo" and "Continuo" pistons do indeed have a function, but would probably not mean anything to an accomplished classical player. The "Alt Mix" pistons under each manual are to re-arrange the composition of the mixtures in each manual. These pistons should be settable on pistons, and they make a considerable difference in the tone quality of the mixtures. "Orchestral Crescendo" is just a secondary crescendo sequence which can be set up by the user. The factory default for that crescendo starts with the celestes and builds up using tremulants, so it is more like a theatre organ sound. I have removed the tremulants from my own sequence, so I get a truly useful secondary crescendo.

"Antiphonal" on any electronic organ turns on a set of speakers placed (usually) in the rear of the church. "Great Unenclosed" removes the great stops from the control of the expression pedal. That allows one to use the left-most expression pedal solely for expressing the choir, while the great plays as if it is outside the box.

Some of the other anomalies you describe might mean the organ needs a service call. It's probably over 20 years old and many such electronics have had little or no maintenance, depending on the diligence of the church and the installing dealer. Also, the overly-chiffy flutes are due to the chiff/puff controls inside the console being turned up too high. The installing dealer and/or a tech who has worked on it since would be to blame.

Someone would be doing that church a big favor to suggest that they have this organ looked at by a truly competent tech/voicer familiar with that era of Rodgers organs. It really should not be giving this kind of trouble.

Like you, I love real pipes and agree that no electronic system takes the place. But there are certainly pipe organs out there that are in just as sorry a condition as you found that Rodgers. I wouldn't want to give an impromptu performance on one of those either.

John

 

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Rodgers 890 at church.
Baldwin D422 at home.
Scads of old organs in the shop! H E L P !!!

BTW, it was NOT me who voted for digital!

John

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Rodgers 890 at church.
Baldwin D422 at home.
Scads of old organs in the shop! H E L P !!!

John, the next time I have to play one of those I'm taking you with me! 

Thanks for taking the time to explain all of that!  I swear you really need to be a rocket scientist to figure out how to do the most basic things.  One failing of digital/electronic instruments is that I think they try to do too many things that pipe organs cannot do.  For someone dashing in to play a service, the result is often not very happy - especially if they are a classical organist used to pipe organs.

I didn't really want to spill the beans about what brand of organ it was, but I guess my description of those "features" gave it away.

The church in question apparently has gone towards rock & roll, so it is not surprising that it was unplugged and probably has been unserviced for years.

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Soubasse32

Well, I hate to admit it, but about a year before I started playing organ, I was fooled by an Allen in an installation right near my home, at the Christian Scientist church in "down-town" Chagrin Falls, I went to check out the console, and found it to be an Allen, and was somewhat annoyed at myself for being fooled by an Electronic instrument, but, I think it was well installed, and has been competently serviced over the time it has been there (I don't really know how long, but it seemed kind of new, not that that means much, because C-S churches are usually locked during the week, excepot Wednesday evenings for testimony meetings, thus no one could really fool with it). I was almost fooled by another,smaller Allen during graduation for school, and might have been fooled if it wasn't for the fact that it was/is the same instrument I regularly play.

I would like to consider myself a pipe person, I love pipes, I had a chance to play pipes this past summer, and was hooked, didn't want to go back to my Allen, but went back to the Allen because I had no real choice in the matter. and there are a few particular installations bout a half hour from where I live now which I would really like to play, 2 Holtkamps, 2 Austins, a Schantz, and a Hredetzky. 

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Once you can tie your arms into a pretzel and your legs into a knot, you've got it under control

Soubasse,

I sympathize with your digital misadventure.  It's the same kind of experience I have typing a simple business letter on Microsoft Word.  I'm an IBM Selectric guy living in a Word world.  What was once simple now has to be made complicated!

These feature-laden digital instruments desperately need a basic pipe organ default setting that allows any player to press a button and have the organ operate exactly as a traditional pipe organ.  Otherwise, folks who haven't "read the manual" will crash and burn. 

Oh well, voted for pipes are I never bother to call the others even organs. And since I'm absolutely tone deaf I don't even mind if they are out of tune

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Expert in non-working solutions

Chiff Drawbar:

Soubasse,

I sympathize with your digital misadventure.  It's the same kind of experience I have typing a simple business letter on Microsoft Word.  I'm an IBM Selectric guy living in a Word world.  What was once simple now has to be made complicated!

These feature-laden digital instruments desperately need a basic pipe organ default setting that allows any player to press a button and have the organ operate exactly as a traditional pipe organ.  Otherwise, folks who haven't "read the manual" will crash and burn. 

 

This problem doesn't just occur between Pipe and Electronic -It is evident even between different vintages of electronic. For example, my early 1950's Wurlitzer ES organ verses the 1980's Allen MOS1 I take care of in a local cathedral. 

Cutting down to basics, my Wurlitzer operates very much like a real pipe organ would. You pull a stop, and a mechanical action engages the correct "rank". There are no pistons to fuss with, and no memory settings to have deleted. Turn the organ on, let the blower reach speed and tubes warm up, and you're all set. 

On the contrary is the Allen. When I first sat down to play it, the crescendo pedal was hammered to the floor. The piston information was completely lost and I was unable to reset them. It literally took 15 minutes of "toying" with settings to figure out how it would work. And, mind you, this organ is near 30 years old! It is sad to hear from others that such situations still occur on modern organs. I grew up on fully-manual instruments, and learn to register on-the-fly. I suppose if my organ had pistons, I would learn to appreciate them. But for now, I will stick to hunting and pecking at stoptabs and grabbing knobs.

 

 

 

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Nathan Wilcox

Yes, a digital worth its salt should be completely intuitive, operating from the console exactly like the pipe organ it is meant to emulate. No excuse for digital builders to make them otherwise. Exotic features should be optional to the player, and not get in the way of anyone having to play the organ without special training.

But things are getting more complicated with more and more MIDI stuff and extraneous features even on pipe consoles. Capture actions are completely out of control! We'll just have to adjust I guess.

Austin, don't feel bad about having been fooled by an Allen. Digital tone generation is really good and when one is properly installed in a lovely reverberant space the effect and the illusion are stunning. I know several electronic installations that are positively thrilling and would fool almost anyone (certain members of this forum being the exceptions).

To my great chagrin, I once thought I was hearing pipes and it turned out to be a C-3 Hammond!  Obviously, it was in a VERY live and organ-friendly church with a talented organist at the console. I was seated too far back to see the console, and enjoyed the service tremendously. Imagine my surprise when I went up afterwards to check out the organ!

John

 

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Rodgers 890 at church.
Baldwin D422 at home.
Scads of old organs in the shop! H E L P !!!