The Organ Forum

Does anyone love a pipe organ that is perfectly 110% exactly in tune, or, like me, do you like just a few notes on a few stops just a tiny bit out of tune so it makes the organ sound a lot more authentic? This is what I don't like about digital organs, how they are always tuned perfectly making them sound too robotic.

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"If you can't get the orchestra any louder, add the organ"

For me, give me an organ that's turned 150% everytime.  There is nothing worse than a beating flute or reed....

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"The Organ is in truth the grandest, the most daring,
the most magnificent of all instruments invented by human genius."

While I totally agree with Don, what I realistically end up with is more like what Diaphone describes.  But it is not always tuning.  There are a few pipes both at church and at home that are not quite as stead in speech (not necessarily attack, but speech) as others.  I believe that it is more this than actual out-of-tuneness that makes a pipe organ sound like what it is and the lack of same that makes a digital organ sound like what it is.  Of course, the better digital organs are now including these natural imperfections for the sake of authenticity.

I'm with Don on this one.

I also agree with Don here. There is a distinction between tuning and voicing. While I prefer an organ to be 150% in tune, I like the fact that each note (pipe) of a specific register has it's own unique character and this has to do with the voicing of the pipe. That's what makes a pipe organ's sound so special - the small subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) nuances that are unique to each pipe of each register. What I'm talking about are things like the "chiff", volume differences between notes of the same register, the amount of air noise, etc... As someone has already noted, the newer digital organs are starting to cater for this as well, but in my opinion there is still a long way to go in this field.

I think Cornet V has stolen my post! I like organs to be in tune and properly voiced.

Electronics have been trying to do this 'not quite perfect' trick for as long as they've been able to actually stay in tune. Even on the analogue Conn models, you had independent tone oscillators for each note and could get the tuning as close as you liked, then hit the Chorus tab for a slight detune. It's the imperfections that count, so people like Allen have been building them into digitals for many years.

I won't open up the pipes vs electronics debate, but they've been making progress on this for a long time. Yes, of course they have a long way to go and no, I don't think they'll ever get all the way, but I predict that they will become good enough to fool most of the people most of the time - if they haven't already done so. Fooling most of the organists most of the time is probably another matter.....

Andy

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It's not what you play, it's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

Andy:  Excellent point regarding a good digital organ fooling the people rather than the organist; thanks for that!

I love a newly-tuned organ.  My sensitivity to tuning issues is fairly acute.

However if the organ has drifted significantly and I don't have time to fix it then c'est la vie.  I've decided I just can't make myself crazy about it.  Yes, I used to obsess over it  but it is not worth the extra angst when it is time to perform.

One thing I really can't stand is when the heat is turned on too late, and the whole organ sounds sick.  Luckily that condition doesn't last too long.

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Soubasse32

I agree with Don 150%! There is nothing worse then shreaking out of tune trebles or beating basses!

Now if I could just figure out a way to keep my organ tuned like that I'd be happy!!!

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"The Organ is in truth the grandest, the most daring,
the most magnificent of all instruments invented by human genius."

Don Furr:

Now if I could just figure out a way to keep my organ tuned like that I'd be happy!!!

That's the easy part!  Just make sure the temperature never varies. 

I'm fond of telling parishioners that you tune an organ with a thermostat - especially at churches without adequate climate control.

Of course it takes a big budget to maintain a constant temperature, but it also costs money to frequently tune an organ in an unstable environment.

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Soubasse32

soubasse32:

Don Furr:

Now if I could just figure out a way to keep my organ tuned like that I'd be happy!!!

That's the easy part!  Just make sure the temperature never varies. 

I'm fond of telling parishioners that you tune an organ with a thermostat - especially at churches without adequate climate control.

Of course it takes a big budget to maintain a constant temperature, but it also costs money to frequently tune an organ in an unstable environment.

You're not kidding soubasse.  We've got one large Austin here in Atlanta that cost the Church over $20 ,000 every year to keep the room in constant temperature.  I'm not sure that make any sense but they have plenty of money.  That's a lot of tunings!!!  Sure makes it easy to touch up the organ and we do that about 4 times every year.

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"The Organ is in truth the grandest, the most daring,
the most magnificent of all instruments invented by human genius."

Don't care. I'm completely atonal and tone-deaf. Honestly I just don't notice it.

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Expert in non-working solutions

I am pretty sensitive to tuning problems, since one of my day jobs is piano tuning. It's really annoying to play an organ that is badly out of tune. No one can make much music on an organ or a piano that is noticeably out of tune.

A couple of observations: (1) I sometimes play a pipe organ and thoroughly enjoy it, only to become aware afterwards that it was somewhat out of tune or that it had several sour notes. I think our ears/brains can overlook a lot of tuning imperfection when the instrument is otherwise making good sounds and we are a bit "lost" in the overall effect of it. Even guys like me who take pride in a good sense of pitch can be sometimes oblivious to tuning, if it's not too bad.

(2) Electronic organs, particularly the latest digitals that use true sampling, with a separate fairly long sample for each stop, can exhibit about the same amount of randomness in tuning among the ranks as a pipe organ. However, this may or may not be a good thing. Since the individual ranks of a digital organ are almost never assigned to completely separate speaker systems (except on perhaps hugely expensive custom digital organs that no one can afford or have room for), there are bound to be ranks sounding through any given speaker that are a little out of tune with each other. When a note is sounded that calls on ranks that are not "dead on" in tune, there are obvious electronic "beats" introduced that can sound a little like cats yowling and sceaming in the alley at night. Of course these beats are not always prominent and not always objectionable, but they can be much more distracting than the same amount of beating that would occur "in the air" with two pipe ranks slightly de-tuned, or electronic stops speaking from two separate speakers.

So, in some cases with digital organs, simpler can in fact be better. The old Allen MDS organs and the earlier ADC organs had the tuning locked "dead on" for all the stops in a given audio channel. Beating could occur only between channels. To my ears that was a little more pleasant than some of the over-done intentional out-of-tune beating in the latest digital organs.

This is only a minor complaint, though, and overall I think the sound of the latest digitals is still astounding and preferable to any earlier electronics.

John

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Rodgers 890 at church.
Baldwin D422 at home.
Scads of old organs in the shop! H E L P !!!

I'm with you on this one diaphone.  I like all the little nuances and drift that comes with a pipe organ.  Although that being said - it was like a breath of fresh air the first Sunday after a full tuning.  Sometimes things can drift a little too far.

This was something we debated on during our conversion to digital.  Our tuning never drifts now and it did take some getting used to.  I think the setup we have is pleasant ... but it is different being 'mostly' in tune all the time.